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Multiple dilutes

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Aela
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Multiple dilutes

Postby Aela » January 12th, 2019, 3:35 pm

I need a second opinion on these two







First stallion has thrown a Silver Bay Dun foal on a Red mare (now rehomed) - so he's definitely both dun and silver besides the obvious champagne and single pearl. IMO he looks too dark to be a cream/pearl and therefore must be double pearl. So Silver Black Pearl Champagne Dun?

Second horse looks a lot like his sire, but is obviously not the same colour since it's impossible for him to be double pearl. So my guess for him would be something along the lines of Silver Classic Cream Champagne.

I've stared way too long at these two, so I would love another set of eyes on these guys :)
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby Silverine » January 12th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Aela wrote:


The first boy can't be double pearl as his sire carried cream without pearl. His dam was double pearl, meaning that he must at least have pearl. Based on the fact that a single pearl gene would not dilute his coat to such an extent and that silver and dun alone could also not be the culprit, we must conclude that he inherited his sire's cream, making him a cream-pearl - a Silver Smoky Grullo Pearl.

Unfortunately his colt is very difficult to discern without a foal picture since his mother is from the AC. Without knowing what his eye color was as a foal I am going to say that he is also a Silver Smoky Black Pearl, making him the same color as his sire minus the dun. The sire's dun accounts for the very slight difference in their coat color, making the sire slightly 'faded' and a tiny bit more 'greenish' than the colt.

I also wanted to add, looking through some of the foals from your first horse's sire you have a few that are mislabeled:
-The stallion himself is mislabeled - he only carries cream, not cream-pearl.
-This horse is double cream, not cream-pearl. If it were cream-pearl it would look more like this one, but without the yellow-ish warm areas on the muzzle and flank.
-This one is a pearl carrier through the dam.
-This one isn't labelled yet, but he's another brown + cream + pearl.
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby Aela » January 12th, 2019, 4:26 pm

Silverine wrote:.


Thank you.

First one is also champagne with those freckles though. Is it really possible for a Silver Smoky Grulla Pearl Champagne to be this dark? And not a pseudo-white?

Second horse's eye colour at birth was a greyish blue - I have his photo saved on my computer.
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby Silverine » January 12th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Aela wrote:


Ah, sorry about that, I missed the freckles. That's interesting. The eyes on both horses are too light for double-pearl, so I'm going to stick with cream-pearl. But perhaps someone who has dealt with the addition of champagne will know more than I do.
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby AltNazarach » January 14th, 2019, 12:29 pm

Silverine wrote:
Aela wrote:


Ah, sorry about that, I missed the freckles. That's interesting. The eyes on both horses are too light for double-pearl, so I'm going to stick with cream-pearl. But perhaps someone who has dealt with the addition of champagne will know more than I do.


regarding champagne, actually it makes it a lot easier to differentiate the dillutions; double pearl causes very visible freckles, even from distance; cream-pearl is visible but less strong than pearl; and double cream only has very pale reckles where one has to zoom close in to be sure that there are freckles at all

for comparison:
nothing silver here, but the double dillutes + champagne:

double pearl+champagne
Image

cr/prl + champagne
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cr/cr + champagne
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby Silverine » January 14th, 2019, 6:54 pm

AltNazarach wrote:


Very interesting. Since you appear to have more experience in this area than I do, what do you think of these two foals?




Out of a smoky black and by a sable dun that carried pearl. I have him labelled as a sable cream pearl. Pretty sure I have him right, but just wanted to check.





Out of a gold champagne (no apparent dilutions, but possible hidden pearl as both parents are AC horses) by a smoky brown pearl dun. I have labelled as a sable cream dun but am honestly not sure with him. He's the one that's throwing me for a bit more of a loop.
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby AltNazarach » January 14th, 2019, 10:02 pm

Silverine wrote:
Very interesting. Since you appear to have more experience in this area than I do, what do you think of these two foals?




Out of a smoky black and by a sable dun that carried pearl. I have him labelled as a sable cream pearl. Pretty sure I have him right, but just wanted to check.





Out of a gold champagne (no apparent dilutions, but possible hidden pearl as both parents are AC horses) by a smoky brown pearl dun. I have labelled as a sable cream dun but am honestly not sure with him. He's the one that's throwing me for a bit more of a loop.


I think you are definitly right on the first one, this weird off shade looks like a brown base and the freckles are neither strong nor barely visible, so I'd agree ^^

I can completely relate... but the tobiano covering so much coupled with the varnish(?) doesn't help at all... May I ask why you think brown is more likely than bay? Definitly some cream there, but I'd have to get a closer look to his face to be somewhat sure, if you would :/

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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby Silverine » January 15th, 2019, 9:35 am

AltNazarach wrote:I can completely relate... but the tobiano covering so much coupled with the varnish(?) doesn't help at all... May I ask why you think brown is more likely than bay? Definitly some cream there, but I'd have to get a closer look to his face to be somewhat sure, if you would :/


Here's a close-up of his face:
Image

I was thinking brown because of the warm area around his muzzle, and just that everything I've seen of him reminded me more of brown than bay. However it's completely possible for him to be bay-based as his maternal grand-dam was bay-based.

For some comparison, here is Totina's sable cream:
Image

And an amber cream dun:
Image

And a classic cream with dun (picked this one because she didn't have sable + cream + dun):
Image

He doesn't seem quite right for any of them, even accounting for shade variations. But he seems like he could match a sable + cream + dun if you take the main shade of the classic cream dun and place it where his dark areas would be and then keep the shade of the amber cream dun/sable cream around the muzzle, so that's where I landed. :lol:

Also, he shouldn't be varnishing yet as NAB varnish (including the varnish I've seen in his lines) tends to only show up after 1 year and I haven't aged him past that yet. I only know he has Lp because of the light snowflakes on his hindquarters. :D
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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby AltNazarach » January 15th, 2019, 9:49 am

Silverine wrote:Here's a close-up of his face:
Image

I was thinking brown because of the warm area around his muzzle, and just that everything I've seen of him reminded me more of brown than bay. However it's completely possible for him to be bay-based as his maternal grand-dam was bay-based.

For some comparison, here is Totina's sable cream:
Image

And an amber cream dun:
Image

And a classic cream with dun (picked this one because she didn't have sable + cream + dun):
Image

He doesn't seem quite right for any of them, even accounting for shade variations. But he seems like he could match a sable + cream + dun if you take the main shade of the classic cream dun and place it where his dark areas would be and then keep the shade of the amber cream dun/sable cream around the muzzle, so that's where I landed. :lol:

Also, he shouldn't be varnishing yet as NAB varnish (including the varnish I've seen in his lines) tends to only show up after 1 year and I haven't aged him past that yet. I only know he has Lp because of the light snowflakes on his hindquarters. :D


okay, now with the comparison I think I can even make out some reeeeeally pale warm spots where they'd be on a brown ^^' I noticed browns with Tobiano tend to have the typical warm spots streched over their whole coat, so that plus the dun could be the reason for the somewhat off shade and the rest would make (somewhat) sense /^^\
and I wasn't sure for the varnish, so thanks for clearing that up <.<' He is a hard nut to crack but I think it will be interesting to see how he looks when he is aged out :)

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Re: Multiple dilutes

Postby Silverine » January 15th, 2019, 9:52 am

AltNazarach wrote:okay, now with the comparison I think I can even make out some reeeeeally pale warm spots where they'd be on a brown ^^' I noticed browns with Tobiano tend to have the typical warm spots streched over their whole coat, so that plus the dun could be the reason for the somewhat off shade and the rest would make (somewhat) sense /^^\
and I wasn't sure for the varnish, so thanks for clearing that up <.<' He is a hard nut to crack but I think it will be interesting to see how he looks when he is aged out :)


I'll probably have to breed him to some known non-dilutes to figure him out entirely. XD

I'd actually never seen the stretched warm spots with brown + To. I've got a bunch of brown in my herds, though. These are just some of the youngsters:











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