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Is this odd?

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Stick
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Is this odd?

Postby Stick » February 10th, 2019, 3:43 pm

Sorry that this guy is only a year old, but I expected this to change when he shed his foal coat... and I'm a slow player, so I might as well start asking about it now. Especially if it does end up fading/changing as he grows, maybe asking about it early is a good idea anyway.

I've seen a couple people ask about weirdly pale manes on agouti horses that don't supposedly have silver, but can't remember if it was explained. It's easiest to see in his younger pictures. Any idea on what this is and where he got it from? I'd thought he was just mealy bay, but maybe I'm missing something? Is this just a way that regular black manes are sometimes rendered?

Rummy

BlackOak2
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby BlackOak2 » February 10th, 2019, 6:45 pm

Stick wrote:Sorry that this guy is only a year old, but I expected this to change when he shed his foal coat... and I'm a slow player, so I might as well start asking about it now. Especially if it does end up fading/changing as he grows, maybe asking about it early is a good idea anyway.

I've seen a couple people ask about weirdly pale manes on agouti horses that don't supposedly have silver, but can't remember if it was explained. It's easiest to see in his younger pictures. Any idea on what this is and where he got it from? I'd thought he was just mealy bay, but maybe I'm missing something? Is this just a way that regular black manes are sometimes rendered?


Silverine and I had been discussing this some months ago... it's been awhile. You can find the info in the first few pages of the Favorites topic.
It's a 'plume' coloration that appears in ancient-style horses (most often found in prze horses). Or that's what we've concluded as far as we can.
It does seem to appear in some of the other breeds around here. Neither one of us were able to pinpoint much about it, but neither one of us were really working on it, just discussing it.

But he is 'just' a mealy bay. He may or may not pass it on. And this gene does seem to suddenly pop-up randomly in bloodlines. But it could just hide really well and not be a recessive type of gene.

Stick
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby Stick » February 10th, 2019, 8:29 pm

BlackOak2 wrote:
Stick wrote:Sorry that this guy is only a year old, but I expected this to change when he shed his foal coat... and I'm a slow player, so I might as well start asking about it now. Especially if it does end up fading/changing as he grows, maybe asking about it early is a good idea anyway.

I've seen a couple people ask about weirdly pale manes on agouti horses that don't supposedly have silver, but can't remember if it was explained. It's easiest to see in his younger pictures. Any idea on what this is and where he got it from? I'd thought he was just mealy bay, but maybe I'm missing something? Is this just a way that regular black manes are sometimes rendered?


Silverine and I had been discussing this some months ago... it's been awhile. You can find the info in the first few pages of the Favorites topic.
It's a 'plume' coloration that appears in ancient-style horses (most often found in prze horses). Or that's what we've concluded as far as we can.
It does seem to appear in some of the other breeds around here. Neither one of us were able to pinpoint much about it, but neither one of us were really working on it, just discussing it.

But he is 'just' a mealy bay. He may or may not pass it on. And this gene does seem to suddenly pop-up randomly in bloodlines. But it could just hide really well and not be a recessive type of gene.


Oh, interesting! So, it's not necessarily a sign of some other gene at work, it's likely just a mane variation that might or might not pass on, and we don't know much about it beyond that?

Interestingly enough, this guy is the offspring of two AC Belgians. I bred those two together again and got another "plume" baby, but her stats were awful, so I didn't keep her.

BlackOak2
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby BlackOak2 » February 11th, 2019, 12:42 pm

Stick wrote:
Oh, interesting! So, it's not necessarily a sign of some other gene at work, it's likely just a mane variation that might or might not pass on, and we don't know much about it beyond that?

Interestingly enough, this guy is the offspring of two AC Belgians. I bred those two together again and got another "plume" baby, but her stats were awful, so I didn't keep her.


It may very well be a sign of another gene at work. Or it could be just a version of the mane.
I suggested I think that it was connected to pangare, but there appeared to be horses without pangare that had it. Like I said, we didn't really figure out too much about it.

Some things that could be interesting to look into:
Can this gene spread to cover more of the mane?
Does it appear in the tail? Or can it?
What AC horse breeds affect it and how?
Do the AC horse breeds have any different versions of plume? (Prez horses do also have plume, but I don't recall anything else specfically)
Is it recessive or dominant? Is there a co-dominance or even an incomplete?
Does it appear the same in all the base colors, or does it not appear in certain ones? (dilutions generally act the same as their base, so when we figure the base out, the dilutions can be figured out closely)

This is where other breeding studies have evolved from. If it interests you, this may prove a short project or not. I'm sure the community will be interested in the results if you decide to tackle it. (I'm one of them :D )
But it's entirely up to you.

Stick
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby Stick » February 11th, 2019, 12:55 pm

BlackOak2 wrote:
Stick wrote:
Oh, interesting! So, it's not necessarily a sign of some other gene at work, it's likely just a mane variation that might or might not pass on, and we don't know much about it beyond that?

Interestingly enough, this guy is the offspring of two AC Belgians. I bred those two together again and got another "plume" baby, but her stats were awful, so I didn't keep her.


It may very well be a sign of another gene at work. Or it could be just a version of the mane.
I suggested I think that it was connected to pangare, but there appeared to be horses without pangare that had it. Like I said, we didn't really figure out too much about it.

Some things that could be interesting to look into:
Can this gene spread to cover more of the mane?
Does it appear in the tail? Or can it?
What AC horse breeds affect it and how?
Do the AC horse breeds have any different versions of plume? (Prez horses do also have plume, but I don't recall anything else specfically)
Is it recessive or dominant? Is there a co-dominance or even an incomplete?
Does it appear the same in all the base colors, or does it not appear in certain ones? (dilutions generally act the same as their base, so when we figure the base out, the dilutions can be figured out closely)

This is where other breeding studies have evolved from. If it interests you, this may prove a short project or not. I'm sure the community will be interested in the results if you decide to tackle it. (I'm one of them :D )
But it's entirely up to you.


I used to be part of the LP project back in the day (before I went on hiatus for a couple years), and had tried to see if I could get my one instance of that "starry" snowflake pattern that Silverine had identified to spread through my herd (to no avail), so I'm always down to start another experiment.

I don't have a lot of room and I'm a very slow player, so I can't exactly be a trailblazer about it, but I love the idea. :D

BlackOak2
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby BlackOak2 » February 11th, 2019, 1:12 pm

Stick wrote:
I used to be part of the LP project back in the day (before I went on hiatus for a couple years), and had tried to see if I could get my one instance of that "starry" snowflake pattern that Silverine had identified to spread through my herd (to no avail), so I'm always down to start another experiment.

I don't have a lot of room and I'm a very slow player, so I can't exactly be a trailblazer about it, but I love the idea. :D


I do remember that. It is a little depressing when a project doesn't work out. When something seems to stalemate, especially when working with these types of things, it may be time to add new blood. Working with the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result isn't a thoughtful path, especially when the different result one looks for cannot be achieved with the type of ingredients at hand.

Besides, a project you want to tackle even if done alongside another, doesn't mean you won't contribute.

Right now, I've seen nor heard of anybody showing any interest in the plume gene, so if you do want to theorize and run some experiments with it, you may be the only one to do so. Slow playing or not, a project can't move forward without somebody starting it. :D

But again, it's entirely up to you.

Stick
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby Stick » February 11th, 2019, 4:50 pm

I could start a thread about it (which board would that go in?) but I just worry that I wouldn't be able to do anything cool like keep the first post regularly updated with the various findings, etc.

But if maybe that's not needed, I could give it a shot!

BlackOak2
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby BlackOak2 » February 11th, 2019, 5:46 pm

Stick wrote:I could start a thread about it (which board would that go in?) but I just worry that I wouldn't be able to do anything cool like keep the first post regularly updated with the various findings, etc.

But if maybe that's not needed, I could give it a shot!


You don't need to keep us updated. Keeping it updated would be if you're working with or are expecting help from other members. The reason the Lp and Tobiano was posted as they were, was because there were already other HWO members that were working on it and some that even said they might or would join if the study was opened as it's own topic. As long as you're working on it alone, the only updates you need are the ones you require yourself.
I would suggest you keep notes however, so you can describe your findings when you do eventually publish it, either joining another's work (if you find one along the way of your own project), or when you've come to a point that you feel publishing to the community is advantageous to your own work or to the community.

Since it's part of the colors, it could go into that forum. The tobiano and Lp studies are in the farm logs. I published my two studies (silver dapple and dun) in the color forum. I feel that publishing those other two was appropriate in the farm logs.
It could go into chit chat, but I think the aforementioned two are better forums for it. You could start it in your own farm log then finish by publishing it as it's own standing topic in another forum.

Silverine
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby Silverine » February 12th, 2019, 7:57 am

BlackOak2 wrote:
Stick wrote:


Some things that could be interesting to look into:
Can this gene spread to cover more of the mane?
Does it appear in the tail? Or can it?
What AC horse breeds affect it and how?
Do the AC horse breeds have any different versions of plume? (Prez horses do also have plume, but I don't recall anything else specfically)
Is it recessive or dominant? Is there a co-dominance or even an incomplete?
Does it appear the same in all the base colors, or does it not appear in certain ones? (dilutions generally act the same as their base, so when we figure the base out, the dilutions can be figured out closely)


I did a little bit of work on this, but not much. A few answers to your questions that I found:

Can this gene spread to cover more of the mane?
Not in my experience. In fact, it disappears once the mane 'flops over'. A horse that has a mohawk will continue to show it, but otherwise the mane expression is lost. Check out this horse to see how it disappears.

Does it appear in the tail?
Yes, if the mane expression is strong enough. Check out this horse again for tail expression.

What AC horse breeds does it affect and how?
I have yet to find a horse from the AC that has this color expression, but from the horses I have seen with it it is at least carried by AC Arabs, NABs, and Belgians. I have not yet seen it in the direct descendants of other AC breeds.

Is it recessive or dominant?
From what I've seen it is recessive with possible secondary genes controlling strength of expression.

Does it appear the same in all base colors?
So far the only base color that I have seen it on is bay.
Image

Stick
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Re: Is this odd?

Postby Stick » February 12th, 2019, 12:48 pm

BlackOak2 wrote:.

That's true, and also reassuring. Having something nice and informal at the beginning, where anyone could chime in and share and discuss if they wanted but there was no pressure to be really serious about it, sounds doable. And yeah, farm logs does sound like a good place to start.


Silverine wrote:.

Oh, that's very helpful! Would I be able to quote that if I set up a thread about it, or maybe just wait for you to chime in there (if you decide to do so) with that information?


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