Fetlock Question

[Stick]

Going to ping BlackOak so they don't miss it, but this question is also for anyone to chime in on!

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So, because of discussion on the mysterious "plume" gene that is still being slowly figured out, I was looking through my own horses that I know express the gene, seeing if anything that I've run into could possibly contribute to the conversation. I didn't come up with anything new, but I did run into questions about some other things.

One of these things being pale fetlocks.

I was looking at the half-sibling of a bay Caspian that shows plume, and I noticed that his fetlocks seem paler than I would have expected. I remembered reading discussion about how flaxen "silvers" fetlocks, but also that maybe other things could come into play, "plume" maaaybe being one of them. So, I am now staring at this horse's fetlocks extra hard, and it's now to the point where I'm not even sure I'm really seeing anything at all.

So, my first question, is if this guy's fetlocks are actually lightened at all. I might be seeing something where there is nothing, as I don't have many chestnut horses to compare to, and staring at the horses running around the AC is getting me nowhere. My second question is if this guy's fetlocks are pale, then what is causing them to be that way? Caspian dun tends to be much more noticeable than this, so it's not that. I'm pretty sure Caspians don't show pangare, so it's probably not that. Is there a light covering of sooty everywhere else that just make his lower legs look lighter by comparison? Is there a really sneaky, light flaxen going on here? Or, is there something more cryptic like a possible chestnut expression of this mysterious "plume?"

Any thoughts or opinions on this would be rad.

[BlackOak2]

Going to ping BlackOak so they don't miss it, but this question is also for anyone to chime in on!

.

So, because of discussion on the mysterious "plume" gene that is still being slowly figured out, I was looking through my own horses that I know express the gene, seeing if anything that I've run into could possibly contribute to the conversation. I didn't come up with anything new, but I did run into questions about some other things.

One of these things being pale fetlocks.

I was looking at the half-sibling of a bay Caspian that shows plume, and I noticed that his fetlocks seem paler than I would have expected. I remembered reading discussion about how flaxen "silvers" fetlocks, but also that maybe other things could come into play, "plume" maaaybe being one of them. So, I am now staring at this horse's fetlocks extra hard, and it's now to the point where I'm not even sure I'm really seeing anything at all.

So, my first question, is if this guy's fetlocks are actually lightened at all. I might be seeing something where there is nothing, as I don't have many chestnut horses to compare to, and staring at the horses running around the AC is getting me nowhere. My second question is if this guy's fetlocks are pale, then what is causing them to be that way? Caspian dun tends to be much more noticeable than this, so it's not that. I'm pretty sure Caspians don't show pangare, so it's probably not that. Is there a light covering of sooty everywhere else that just make his lower legs look lighter by comparison? Is there a really sneaky, light flaxen going on here? Or, is there something more cryptic like a possible chestnut expression of this mysterious "plume?"

Any thoughts or opinions on this would be rad.

Hello, again, Stick.

(Female, by the way, but that's what's nice about being online, anonymity)

This horse is most definitely chestnut pangare. No flaxen, no apparent dun. What gives him away, other then the lighter legs, which he does have, is the flank skin, the nose and around the eye, all of these are also lighter, just like the legs.
Caspians from the AC do have it, although it's mostly very gentle expressions.

There are three (rather four now with the plume gene), that will color the fetlocks.
I was using 'silver' as a descriptive word because it's a little different from what the other fetlock coloration does.
From what I've seen, three genes will dilute (lighten, pale-out, wash-out) the color on the legs, these are dun, pangare and flaxen.
This forth one doesn't appear to dilute the color, rather it creates a 'silvering' on the fetlocks, this is the plume gene. But I don't know enough of it to describe anything beyond that. It could also be diluting the fetlocks, just like the other three genes, but also adds color there (kind of like what roan does, adding white hairs intermixed with the base color).

Dun colors the fetlocks from the back of the leg forward.
Flaxen comes up from the hoof.
Pangare reaches downward from the upper leg.
The plume gene appears to act much more like dun, silvering the fetlock from the back forward.

[Stick]

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Haha, got it. I didn't want to assume gender, so thank you for clarifying.

And as I am so great at missing faint expressions of things, I am not surprised in the least that this is another case of me missing something like this. I (obviously) had no idea at all that Caspians did actually show pangare, so this is great to know... as I'm planning on focusing on the breed quite a bit.

All the details of exactly how the fetlock-affecting genes tend to present themselves are really helpful. I'm hoping I can continue honing my eye toward these things and not just seeing them all as "lighter ankles."

I was thinking of going back and looking at all the plume horses I have to maybe see how the plume silvering looks different from everything else, but the others are all bay and are full of dun and pangare anyway. Unless the plume silvering might show up anyway on horses like that?

[BlackOak2]

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Haha, got it. I didn't want to assume gender, so thank you for clarifying.

And as I am so great at missing faint expressions of things, I am not surprised in the least that this is another case of me missing something like this. I (obviously) had no idea at all that Caspians did actually show pangare, so this is great to know... as I'm planning on focusing on the breed quite a bit.

All the details of exactly how the fetlock-affecting genes tend to present themselves are really helpful. I'm hoping I can continue honing my eye toward these things and not just seeing them all as "lighter ankles."

I was thinking of going back and looking at all the plume horses I have to maybe see how the plume silvering looks different from everything else, but the others are all bay and are full of dun and pangare anyway. Unless the plume silvering might show up anyway on horses like that?

You're not the only one that sees/fails to see/sees things that aren't there... I do it often enough to make me go cross-eyed.

I don't know enough yet about the plume gene to answer the question outside of: I suspect that plume will override other genes quite easily.

Gaagii has begun to pull in other colors to work with and I think (though I could be wrong), that they'll be working toward most or all of the colors eventually with the plume gene, including the dilutions (cream, champagne...).

Thus far, the only color it seems to be hidden with entirely, is black, just like pangare hides on black, but even this is still unknown, it just appears to be this way.

What I do know, is that the older AC id numbers do appear to more readily throw this plume gene, however, it doesn't seem to want to progress into a strong expression very easily. It affects mane, tail and [feathers] (but insofar as it silvers those ankles, Gaagii hasn't offered a feathered horse yet, so it's more of an assumption then a fact), it can affect these three areas separately of each other (tail and ankles as a unit), and for all appearance, is a flaxen-like gene for non-chestnut horses.

Thus, this is the extent of my plume knowledge to date And almost wholly thanks to Gaagii.

[Stick]

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Haha, I've been watching the plume discussion you guys have going on, but not very closely, so that summary of things-known-so-far is great.

I can only find two current of horses of mine that have plume (one bay Caspian and one bay/roan Norman Cob) but I know I had others before. I've done so much rearranging recently for that rare-breed contest, I've lost track of what I've put where, what I've gotten rid of entirely... I'll poke around my partner's accounts to see if I gave any to them, but I probably rehomed or sold most of them. I know I've rehomed a couple that were failures in trying for my breeding projects...

But yes, thank you again for your help. It's always a learning experience for me.

[BlackOak2]

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