Stick wrote:BlackOak2 wrote:.
Thanks for the LP recap. The only thing that is different from what I'd previously understood, is that I'd been told that when there is the LP switch but no pattern, you almost always still see snowflakes anyway. In the same way that a horse with LP/LP switch but no pattern often shows a small blanket anyway.
Not that it really matters much either way, in this case. Again, the fetlocks are the key that I miss.
Now, my question about the plume version of fetlock "silvering" is if it affects both black and red hairs, or only red. Some of the example horses on Gaagii's thread don't seem to have pale fetlocks, but their bay markings go very high. So, I'm wondering if maybe that first horse I was asking about still might have plume but the silvering is being "covered" by the high black bay hair on his legs. Or, if the silvering is progressive, it might not have shown up brightly yet, since he's still so young. Could that be a thing? ...Or am I missing the silvering on black legs because of my stupid monitor?
Let's retackle Lp first. Unless something has changed, snowflakes are a pattern, just not a spot pattern. It is handled separately from Lp spot... in this way...
Spot pattern can have both spots and snowflakes
Spot pattern can have just snowflakes
Snowflake pattern can not have spots
So there is overlap. The question comes into play is whether the spot pattern that also has snowflakes, is it that the horse has both types of pattern genes? or is it that the spot pattern DOES have snowflakes included? From what I recall, we hadn't been able to determine one way or the other. The only conclusion I remember us coming to is that, a spot-patterned horse, when their offspring from a horse from Before the Lp release (so no Lp genes to pass on at all), produces a snowflaked horse... what does that mean? Especially when that spot-patterned horse had no visible snowflakes, only spot patterns. Then, of course, snowflakes could hide in some rather unique areas. So I don't know if we would be able to find an answer to that question without actually genetically testing for it.
Also, which returns to the same question, two snowflaked horses can in fact, produce a spot-patterned foal, which means that the snowflaked pattern those two carried are likely not snowflake-gene but spot-gene in snowflake pattern. But that was the closest we got to answering that. And we got that close, because Silverine produced a very long line of strictly snowflaked horses without producing spotted foals. Thus we came to the three-pattern theory.
On toward plume.
So from what I've understood about Gaagii's study is that plume can affect the mane and tail separately. If the mane is colored, the tail may or may not be colored. However, if the tail is colored (thus far), the mane will also be colored AND ALSO if the tail is colored, the fetlocks will be colored.
Plume expression on the fetlocks does appear to overlap any other color there (so if dun and pangare is also apparent, the silvering from plume is on top of both of these colors).
However, flaxen is a bit more difficult to tell and hasn't yet been fully studied. Gaagii has worked with flaxen in the study, but doesn't seem to have produce many non-flaxen with the plume gene. Even if produced, since plume resembles so closely the flaxen gene, down to coloring the same way on the fetlocks, it may be difficult at best to describe if it's flaxen or plume.... with the exception that flaxen always lightens BOTH mane and tail the same shade and plume will lighten the base the most and lesser the more it progresses along the length of the mane or tail.
So... assuming the plume gene: a silvering on the fetlocks WILL be accompanied by a discoloration on the tail (so if the tail isn't discolored, it's either not plume, or perhaps it's an anomaly that must be studied further) and if the tail is discolored, so then will the mane be.
So to answer your question, it does affect black hairs, it appears on top of the other simple dilution genes (dun, pangare, assuming flaxen), but changing chestnut... not yet fully understood. The assumption this far is yes.
It does not appear to be progressive (notwithstanding foal coat), but there could be many genes involved that haven't been discovered.
The first foal... IF it had plume (and it could), then it would likely just be the mane plume and not the mane and tail plume (thus the silvering fetlocks wouldn't come into play). But from what I noticed, it appears to be just Lp varnish.
However, there are preliminary findings (thank you Gaagii!) that plume on a progressively-advanced varnished horse will have a negative color effect ongoing in the mane and tail (or wherever the plume does affect), so when the horse is young, the plume will color the base of the mane silver, when the horse is much older and the varnish has turned the mane white, the plume silver will turn back to a charcoal or ash-blackened color. So when young, the horse may display silver turning to black mane and when the horse is old it will be negative or opposite, black turning to white mane.
If your horse, when it grows up or old (about 10 it should start showing), starts to develop a blackish base of the mane, then it could very well be from the plume gene.