Multiple Horses

[ivy020]

Hello! I've been combing through my horses, updating their genetics, and would greatly appreciate any help.

Thunderbolt's coat has been baffling me for a while.
BP Thunderbolt Dally

Her sire is her dam's son. Dally is a bay tobiano, and Dallied is a silver (nZ) bay tobiano (n/T). Thunderbolt clearly has the silver and tobiano genes, but I don't understand why her base coat is so washed-out and grey. especially as her parents are both bays. Possibly a hidden dilute gene from her grandsire?

BP Darkest Before Dawn

EE/Aa/nZ/nT/Gg/nCr? I'm fairly certain her sire carries one cream gene (so he would be a seal brown cream). Coupled with the bay, she would be a silver buckskin, correct?

BP Devil's Redemption

I've no idea from whom Redemption inherited the Ata gene.

BP Kindred Drift

I'm too lazy to figure out this one. :p Probably Lplp and patn2?

BP Native Drift


BP Desert Drift

Dun blanket appaloosa? Ee/Aa/DD/Lplp/patn2?

BP Tectonic Drift


Yes, I realize my horses are incredibly inbred. Oops.

Thanks in advance! (And please let me know if this should be separated into different posts.)

[Aliw1995]

Hello! I've been combing through my horses, updating their genetics, and would greatly appreciate any help.

Thunderbolt's coat has been baffling me for a while.
BP Thunderbolt Dally

Her sire is her dam's son. Dally is a bay tobiano, and Dallied is a silver (nZ) bay tobiano (n/T). Thunderbolt clearly has the silver and tobiano genes, but I don't understand why her base coat is so washed-out and grey. especially as her parents are both bays. Possibly a hidden dilute gene from her grandsire?

BP Darkest Before Dawn

EE/Aa/nZ/nT/Gg/nCr? I'm fairly certain her sire carries one cream gene (so he would be a seal brown cream). Coupled with the bay, she would be a silver buckskin, correct?

BP Devil's Redemption

I've no idea from whom Redemption inherited the Ata gene.

BP Kindred Drift

I'm too lazy to figure out this one. :p Probably Lplp and patn2?

BP Native Drift


BP Desert Drift

Dun blanket appaloosa? Ee/Aa/DD/Lplp/patn2?

BP Tectonic Drift


Yes, I realize my horses are incredibly inbred. Oops.

Thanks in advance! (And please let me know if this should be separated into different posts.)

1. Silver black tobiano with some pangare - the pangare is what causes the "washed out" look
2. Palomino going grey - both parents are Ee. She may or may not carry silver
3. Seal bay - the At gene doesnt exist in real life - I'm not sure if it exists in game. in real life this horse would test EE_A
4. Buckskin with Lp and Patn1
5.Bay with Lp and Patn1
6. Ee_A Dd Lplp Patn1/N
7. Buckskin with het lp and patn1

[ivy020]

Thanks for the help!

1. Do you know from whom she got the pangare from? I've combed through her family tree and none of them seem to carry it.

3. The seal bay colouring would've come from her sire (does that make sense?), correct? Also - and I genuinely hope this doesn't come off as rude - would you please link a source that explains At doesn't exist? From my understanding, it once was disputed but now generally accepted as an agouti gene.

Again, I appreciate your help.

[ivy020]

1. Silver black tobiano with some pangare - the pangare is what causes the "washed out" look
2. Palomino going grey - both parents are Ee. She may or may not carry silver
3. Seal bay - the At gene doesnt exist in real life - I'm not sure if it exists in game. in real life this horse would test EE_A
4. Buckskin with Lp and Patn1
5.Bay with Lp and Patn1
6. Ee_A Dd Lplp Patn1/N
7. Buckskin with het lp and patn1

I don't know how to ping.

[Aliw1995]

Thanks for the help!

1. Do you know from whom she got the pangare from? I've combed through her family tree and none of them seem to carry it.

3. The seal bay colouring would've come from her sire (does that make sense?), correct? Also - and I genuinely hope this doesn't come off as rude - would you please link a source that explains At doesn't exist? From my understanding, it once was disputed but now generally accepted as an agouti gene.

Again, I appreciate your help.

The At gene was found not to exist. Seal bay phenotype horses have been found to be EE_A - A / a is agouti. Take a look at Equine Colour Genetics or Equine Tapestry - both are blogs/ websites run by genetics experts.
It could be a random mutation. A lot of horses lose pangare as they age so look at her parents foal pictures

[ivy020]

The At gene was found not to exist. Seal bay phenotype horses have been found to be EE_A - A / a is agouti. Take a look at Equine Colour Genetics or Equine Tapestry - both are blogs/ websites run by genetics experts.
It could be a random mutation. A lot of horses lose pangare as they age so look at her parents foal pictures

That makes sense; thank you.

[Silverine]

Thanks for the help!

1. Do you know from whom she got the pangare from? I've combed through her family tree and none of them seem to carry it.

3. The seal bay colouring would've come from her sire (does that make sense?), correct? Also - and I genuinely hope this doesn't come off as rude - would you please link a source that explains At doesn't exist? From my understanding, it once was disputed but now generally accepted as an agouti gene.

Again, I appreciate your help.

The At gene was found not to exist. Seal bay phenotype horses have been found to be EE_A - A / a is agouti. Take a look at Equine Colour Genetics or Equine Tapestry - both are blogs/ websites run by genetics experts.
It could be a random mutation. A lot of horses lose pangare as they age so look at her parents foal pictures

Foal pangare is not linked to adult pangare. The only horses that will not exhibit foal pangare are grays. For a horse to have actual pangare it will need to display that gene at 1 year old. Also, the "pangare" affect on silver black horses in HWO is not linked to the pangare gene of non-black horses. It is a separate effect of the silver gene.

Do you have a link to documentation that Gower's agouti model was disproven? Last I had heard was that At was still theorized, but can not currently be tested for as the testing methods can only detect whether or not the allele is the recessive black version (some information from UC Davis can be found here). In either case, HWO uses an A/A⁺/A^t/a model of agouti.

[Aliw1995]

The At gene was found not to exist. Seal bay phenotype horses have been found to be EE_A - A / a is agouti. Take a look at Equine Colour Genetics or Equine Tapestry - both are blogs/ websites run by genetics experts.
It could be a random mutation. A lot of horses lose pangare as they age so look at her parents foal pictures

Foal pangare is not linked to adult pangare. The only horses that will not exhibit foal pangare are grays. For a horse to have actual pangare it will need to display that gene at 1 year old. Also, the "pangare" affect on silver black horses in HWO is not linked to the pangare gene of non-black horses. It is a separate effect of the silver gene.

Do you have a link to documentation that Gower's agouti model was disproven? Last I had heard was that At was still theorized, but can not currently be tested for as the testing methods can only detect whether or not the allele is the recessive black version (some information from UC Davis can be found here). In either case, HWO uses an A/A⁺/A^t/a model of agouti.

That animal genetics link doesnt even mention At as (Like I said) it's existence has been debunked. UC Davis also only considers A as the gene that restricts the distribution of black pigment in ALL bay horses, regardless of shade. As I said, the At gene doesnt exist. https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/agouti.php

Another which doesn't so much as mention the At gene (or the A+ gene) https://www.combibreed.com/en-gb/Info-r ... tion/Horse

And again https://www.centerforanimalgenetics.com ... bay-black/

There was a hypothasis formed in 99 that he At gene was responsible for seal browns, a test was available as of 2016, but has since been removed as it was wildly inaccurate and no gene has since been detected. It is now theorised that EE_A horses are phenotypically dark/seal bay.

[Silverine]

That animal genetics link doesnt even mention At as (Like I said) it's existence has been debunked. UC Davis also only considers A as the gene that restricts the distribution of black pigment in ALL bay horses, regardless of shade. As I said, the At gene doesnt exist. https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/agouti.php

Another which doesn't so much as mention the At gene (or the A+ gene) https://www.combibreed.com/en-gb/Info-r ... tion/Horse

And again https://www.centerforanimalgenetics.com ... bay-black/

There was a hypothasis formed in 99 that he At gene was responsible for seal browns, a test was available as of 2016, but has since been removed as it was wildly inaccurate and no gene has since been detected. It is now theorised that EE_A horses are phenotypically dark/seal bay.

Again, do you have a link to the debunking? I am simply curious and want to read up on it. Not mentioning At is not the same as refuting it, hence why I would like to read an article that directly addresses the model.

The page doesn't mention anything other than A or a, because literally the only thing you can test for is the deletion that marks the recessive gene.

Agouti has been linked to a deletion of 11 nucleotides in the agouti gene. The 11 nucleotide deletion of this gene is the recessive form of the gene. Only when the agouti gene is homozygous for the deletion (aa) is the black pigment evenly distributed.

To be clear - I'm not claiming that At exists or doesn't. I'm saying that at this point we still don't know if there are only two alleles at agouti or if there are more.