Next set of probably cryptic duns

[Tjigra]

I have a new bunch of horses set aside that I need help to determine if they are dun or not (plus some other colour questions). This streak is mostly chestnut
Danar C

Neither parent looks dun, but Danar's colour still looks a bit off (mostly his lower jaw). Metallic and sooty playing out, or dun?
Windmaster C

Sooty on buckskin or dunskin? The bright underside of his mane in newborn picture can be viewed as a dorsal stripe?
Wishful C

I was rather sure she was plain bay, but her ankles look a bit lighter?
Tonga C

Dun? Body colour seems a bit off to be plain chestnut, and her mane is rather striking and a bit striped - could that also be a cryptic flaxen maybe?
Wild Truth C

Please say this is plain chestnut I don't see dun on her, but I am feeling a bit paranoid about it
Blanditia C

This too. The blue-ish / grey-ish overtone comes from sooty, right?
Togiak C

I've marked him as chestnut, but the older he gets, the more off his body colour looks. He also has the striped mane like his halfsister Tonga.

These two I suspect being flaxen - are they?
High Times C

Her sire is the totally cryptic flaxen stallion Hopeful C I was bringing up some time ago. Her mane doesn't look very flaxen, but tail probably is a bit lighter?
Gallant Blaze C

Her dam is flaxen, but I had no idea the sire could possibly carry it.

And another totally different colour question:
Golden Shoe C

A totally strange field for me, as I try to stay clear of champagne. That is a champagne on what? Smokey black?

[BlackOak2]

...

Ah, the cryptics.

Okay, let's see what I think this time.

Danar C - doesn't look like a cryptic dun to me. I agree with you, I think it's the metallic playing the part. Although, I'm considering, since you have cryptic flaxen in your lines, that this colt might have that. As a yearling, his tail-head looks considerably lighter than the rest of his tail... but this could also be metallic, or even plume, as we know that plume can change the tail-head or the mane-base. But no dun at least, in my opinion.

Windmaster C - well yes, usually the stripe at the bottom of the mane as a newborn is indication of dun, but a lot of the buckskins also have a similar line and aren't dun. In this case, I do see the dun mask and there at the very front of the legs, I see the barest indication of striping just beginning then dying.

Wishful C - Yes, a plain bay. But you see how her mane and tail as a newborn look a bit like a salt-and-pepper oldie? This is what that plume gene does. It appears there's a lot of that 'little bit-o-plume' in a lot of the HWO horses. Just enough to give the indication that the mane and tail are not BLACK-black. This isn't related to the dun gene, but can make the ankles and mane and tail frosted. This filly has just enough to give the barest hint of frosting, but is NOT a dun, in my opinion.

Tonga C - Not sure about the flaxen, if you feel that this horse is a cryptic flaxen, then you may very well be right. But definitely a dun. Her cheek gives her away for me. Couple that with the body mask and the front of the chest, and it's pretty apparent.

Wild Truth C - I see what you mean with this one. Super cryptic, IF she is. I'd vote no dun. But if we're both questioning it, then she probably is a dun.

Blanditia C - Though affected by a brilliant sooty (very nice color, indeed) I do think this horse has dun. As I go through the photos and the horse, I keep thinking I see that dorsal stripe and as a newborn, the dun mask. Maybe I could be wrong and maybe it's the metallic. But the face, the cheek, the front of the chest and the desire to say there's a spinal stripe, it all leads me to say a cryptic dun. But on this one, I want to say I'm wrong and that she is NOT a dun. Maybe we're both seeing too much dun.

Togiak C - it's pretty evident: The mane and tail shouldn't be darker than the body. Champagne will lighten the body as a horse ages and the graying gene and Lp will change the mane and tail colors too, but a chestnut horse does not have a darker mane and tail then the body, without another gene being involved. So dun is the likely culprit. That's one of the stronger indications for a dun mask on a newborn in chestnut, when the color of the mane is definitely darker than the neck just below the mane. Of course newborn pangare must be watched as well, it can affect the body color and hide the mask.

High Times C - you're correct to question this. And I don't know how to answer it, since you've had a non-flaxen-apparent born from two apparent flaxen parents. And because of your 'tail is lighter' comment, I have to agree that she needs to be marked as flaxen. HOWEVER, her dam also has that same 'tail is lighter' look. So it could be the plume gene and not flaxen at all. And that does make just a little more sense. Flaxen will affect both mane and tail together, not one and not the other. Plume however (since we now understand a lot more about it) can affect one more than the other, or just one separately and NOT the other. The good thing is the plume gene is (from the study) generally VERY hard to breed stronger characteristics. So unless you work hard to produce it, it shouldn't really offer much more than what you see here, a very gentle, just enough to make you question other genes, style of expression.

Gallant Blaze C - definitely flaxen. Flaxen is recessive, so the only way to know sometimes whether a horse has it, is to cross a recessive expressed horse (meaning homozygous for the gene), to a possible carrier and see if the foal express that recessive gene. Thus we conclude that both parents must carry at least one gene (in this case, one parent is a definite carrier of a pair). Kind of sucks a bit when you're trying to breed OUT a gene and it hasn't shown up in a LONG line, then suddenly it does. I had a double pearl pop up in a quest line recently that surprised me. Those recessive genes are a hidden time-bomb sometimes.

Golden Shoe C - Yes! you are quite right! Champagne plus a single cream gene, on a black base.

[Tjigra]

...

Thanks for the throughout analysis
A few thoughts on that.
Danar C is unrelated to my cryptic flaxen line, but his dam is a rather obvious slightly-plume, so that must be it.

Wishful C is not related to any know plumes, but now that I looked closer, her sire has the salt-and-pepper mane too before it goes all light from Lp.

High Times C - yes, now that you pointed that out, I agree she might be plume. I attributed her dam's tail colour difference to sooty before, but the tail looks brighter in her early pictures too before sooty takes over, and her dam in turn is a brilliant black with a rather obviously not BLACK black tail. However, Wild Times' halfsister is believed to be flaxen under palomino and has produced a likely-flaxen looking foal (from Hopeful C, THE cryptic ), so there is a rather high chance that Wild Times does carry flaxen. I suppose the only way to tell one way or another is to breed High Times to flaxen stallions to try and get an obvious non-flaxen from her.

I'll keep an eye out on Tungusk's foals for more obvious plume or flaxen from now on. He is not from my lines, so I have no idea what he might carry, and so many of his foals being Lp doesn't help too. But he loves throwing semi-cryptic duns for sure, despite being very obviously dun himself.

If Blanditia is dun, which parent is to blame? Her dam, Delecta, is such a brilliant rich shade of gold I don't think she hides it, despite her sire being dun. Blanditia's sire I know nothing about, but neither of his pictures look dun (his legs are lighter, but that looks more like uneven sooty or probably cryptic flaxen than dun).

As to Galahad C carrying flaxen - I am really glad he does, as flaxen is something I want to breed IN, not OUT And better obvious flaxens, not cryptic ones like Hopeful C

Champagne on black with single cream - what is it called? Classic smokey black?

And regarding Wild Truth C, I am choosing to believe she is not dun I should be able to get rid of the dun at least sometimes, shouldn't I?

[BlackOak2]

Thanks for the throughout analysis
A few thoughts on that.
Danar C is unrelated to my cryptic flaxen line, but his dam is a rather obvious slightly-plume, so that must be it.

Wishful C is not related to any know plumes, but now that I looked closer, her sire has the salt-and-pepper mane too before it goes all light from Lp.

High Times C - yes, now that you pointed that out, I agree she might be plume. I attributed her dam's tail colour difference to sooty before, but the tail looks brighter in her early pictures too before sooty takes over, and her dam in turn is a brilliant black with a rather obviously not BLACK black tail. However, Wild Times' halfsister is believed to be flaxen under palomino and has produced a likely-flaxen looking foal (from Hopeful C, THE cryptic ), so there is a rather high chance that Wild Times does carry flaxen. I suppose the only way to tell one way or another is to breed High Times to flaxen stallions to try and get an obvious non-flaxen from her.

I'll keep an eye out on Tungusk's foals for more obvious plume or flaxen from now on. He is not from my lines, so I have no idea what he might carry, and so many of his foals being Lp doesn't help too. But he loves throwing semi-cryptic duns for sure, despite being very obviously dun himself.

If Blanditia is dun, which parent is to blame? Her dam, Delecta, is such a brilliant rich shade of gold I don't think she hides it, despite her sire being dun. Blanditia's sire I know nothing about, but neither of his pictures look dun (his legs are lighter, but that looks more like uneven sooty or probably cryptic flaxen than dun).

As to Galahad C carrying flaxen - I am really glad he does, as flaxen is something I want to breed IN, not OUT And better obvious flaxens, not cryptic ones like Hopeful C

Champagne on black with single cream - what is it called? Classic smokey black?

And regarding Wild Truth C, I am choosing to believe she is not dun I should be able to get rid of the dun at least sometimes, shouldn't I?

Blanditia C - I'm still not sure on her... but if she does have a cryptic style of dun, then, Blanditia C's blamable parent for dun is her dam, the palomino. But like I did say before, as I look at her, I keep seeing hints that I think are dun so I want to say she has dun... but I also say I'm wrong and that she does not have it.

The champagne would be something like: Classic Cream (Smoky Cream Champagne generally denotes two creams, not just one).

Eventually, you'll either have cryptics that can't be defined differently in appearance from non-duns, or you'll breed out the duns! So why not call them plains?

[Tjigra]

Found another one.
Palma C

I was about to put "dunskin silver" as her colour, but stopped short. I can't see any dun marks on her, even though I somewhat automatically expect these tarpan and przewalski descended breeds to be all dun. Now that I looked closer, I don't see any dun on her dam either. There is that brighter line at the base of their manes, but that's about it. Palma's sire is dun, of course, so she might as well be even if Melissa is not, but their body colour look very similar to me.

[BlackOak2]

Found another one.
I was about to put "dunskin silver" as her colour, but stopped short. I can't see any dun marks on her, even though I somewhat automatically expect these tarpan and przewalski descended breeds to be all dun. Now that I looked closer, I don't see any dun on her dam either. There is that brighter line at the base of their manes, but that's about it. Palma's sire is dun, of course, so she might as well be even if Melissa is not, but their body colour look very similar to me.

Yeah, I'm right there with you.
There does appear to be a very gently mask on their body and their ankles do both appear to have the barest hint of dun... But that could also be just their buckskin colorations and not actually attributable to dun at all.

I think my final conclusion (at least right now! ) is that dam does not have it, but daughter does.