Confused about Appaloosa!

[Stick]

Well dang. I suppose they're notes that would be too cumbersome or something to be posted somewhere public?

[BlackOak2]

Well dang. I suppose they're notes that would be too cumbersome or something to be posted somewhere public?

I'll offer them. The reason I don't like doing so, until I'm done, is because the info contained may very well be very wrong. It's the same reason why I don't offer the sale or stud, or brood of my horses. They're not done yet and weird, strange or unexpected outcomes can happen.

But anyway... the following are most of my notes concerning appaloosa patterning and may or may not be correct. Some of them may not be entirely clear, so if you need some explanation, feel free to ask.

Arabian offers a closer density spotting and may offer a different patterning, could fill in certain areas that other breeds can't. Possibly only carries PATN2.
Belgian offers medium spots and perhaps also offers a smaller white spread. It could also be the carrier of the full leopard PATN1, but extremely rare, if it does.
Caspian is the main unlocking breed for the spreading of white patterning. Offers a lot of spread but doesn't seem to offer spread in blanket areas that shetland and tarpan covers.
Forest horses offer the largest spots available and probably offers little to no white spreading.
NAB offers snowflake spreading and maybe offers less density to the spots.
Prezewalski offers the minimum sized spots available and may also offer less density to spots.
Shetland carries the master switch Lp and seems to offer spot ability (but not white spread) over most of the basic body. Also offers white spread over hips and back legs. Also is the carrier of the highest (quickest appearing), or called extreme varnish.
Tarpan carries the master switch Lp with color over hips and back, but will only spread to the point of the hip and no further. Also seems to be a carrier of the extreme varnish.
Turkmene seems to offer the highest spreading snowflake pattern.

Appaloosa notes.
Can have PATN but not show any. Means that they don't have the Lp gene. Lp meaning lepoard complex and has only one gene with 2 alleles (LpLp). Known as the on/off gene and is dominant. Two Lp genes produces a 'fewspot' pattern, in this game it appears as a dusted edge and comes with a couple miniaturized spots.
PATN is the pattern gene and has 26 genes with 2 to 4 alleles each. I wonder if it's PATN1 through PATN26 or if the alleles reference parts of the body. As stated, PATN1 causes the most white to appear and is hidden in two breeds. But that could reference a near-leopard pattern and a full-leopard pattern. The gene also works as a dominant. I wonder if one of these, PATN is snowflake incomplete dominant, but when inherits a second of the same PATN, it offers a blanket instead, but… some still show snowflakes? on web, PATN2 is responsible for but blankets that can extend to the shoulder, stomach but not legs.on the web, doubled PATN2 offers the same blanket, but with few to no spots, it also says that PATN2 is for 'any other pattern that is not PATN1' Tarpan does not carry the PATN1 gene.on the web, doubled PATN2 offers the same blanket, but with few to no spots, it also says that PATN2 is for 'any other pattern that is not PATN1'
Snowflake has 2 genes with 3 to 100 alleles. Is snowflake completely separate from PATN? As stated 'snowflake density: all breeds are capable of developing snowflake spots…'? as stated: 'one breed carries high density and one breed carries extreme density' which could mean that one of the genes is an incomplete dominant. what do I know? I know that two snowflake parents can produce a blanket but also has snowflakes, which means what? They both have Lp, they both have snowflake, but neither carries the PATN1 gene. So, the snowflake gene can be an incomplete dominant, meaning two creates blankets, but then any snowflake carrier will produce blankets 50% when crossed with other snowflake carriers. So it is not an incomplete dominant for blankets. which means what? Since this has two genes, that means one is strictly snowflake and the other is snowflake and blanket. So now there is a new question. Can the snowflake blanket spread if only bred to other snowflake blankets where the snowflake spreads?
Spot size has 2 genes, one with 4 alleles and the other with 2 alleles. There are 4 different sizes of spots, herein named tiny, normal, medium and large. two breeds carry medium and large size (belgian = medium, forest = large).
I think this is an incomplete dominant or possibly co-dominant. I also think that all horse that carry PATN genes, must also carry both spot genes, in some form.
Spot Density is 1 gene with 100 alleles. I lean toward the assumption that the alleles are split between areas of effect and denseness of spots, because a horse can have different densities on different areas of the body, and they seem to be passable to offspring.

That concludes all the notes so far that I have. I don't really have proof on much of it. But from what I've been looking over, from my own horses and from others, those are the conclusions I have come to. But they're all theories so far.

[Stick]

Aah! This is great! I'm going to pick over these and compare them to a couple things that I've noticed from my girlfriend's breeding adventures on her account, because I've noticed and wondered about a few of them myself. Also, have you noticed that Shetland PATN very often includes white in the tail, even when the blanket doesn't touch it? I'm wondering if it's a Shetland thing, or just happens to be the particular horse I'm breeding.

But yes this is all great. Thank you so much for sharing! I can't wait to see how our notes match and differ as I go along.

[BlackOak2]

Aah! This is great! I'm going to pick over these and compare them to a couple things that I've noticed from my girlfriend's breeding adventures on her account, because I've noticed and wondered about a few of them myself. Also, have you noticed that Shetland PATN very often includes white in the tail, even when the blanket doesn't touch it? I'm wondering if it's a Shetland thing, or just happens to be the particular horse I'm breeding.

But yes this is all great. Thank you so much for sharing! I can't wait to see how our notes match and differ as I go along.

Well, kept us (me, specifically! Hah!) informed. I have noticed that about shetlands. I don't know if it's because the blanket flows down on the opposite side of the horse (which we can't see), or whether it blossoms up from below. If those alleles determine which area will be covered by white, then you might be able to pin down the spot as a specific genetically linked area. What I've also noticed is that the areas will overlap, so if the alleles are the reason for areas being white (or spotted or snowflaked) then the areas overlap, such as the shoulder may be handled by as many as five or more allele-linked commands. I have noticed distinct cut-off lines in some areas on my horses...


It's a little harder to see in this image, but there, on the ribcage, just behind that brown splotch, it looks like somebody cut apart half of the spots.


You can see it decently good on this horse, there on the thigh area. Granted I had a lot in this line that had the same pattern, but I also noticed this in many other unrelated lines as well.

I used to have them all over my herd as I worked to spread the white, but now they pop up much less often. I also noticed, that these 'lines' are much harder to see when in a double Lp coat. I catch these lines behind the shoulder, on the flank, under the stomach and on the side of the stomach. Those I've seen most often.

[Stick]

Oh, wow! That's extremely interesting. I hadn't noticed those sorts of lines before, but I had noticed identical base-shapes of white on related horses, with nothing but the colored spots and some of the edging different in a few places. And then, those identical shapes could be seen making up larger patterns of white further down the family tree as more white is revealed on the offspring.

So, something that I've been wondering is if maybe there are "maximum" expressions of each PATN, with more and more of those ultimate shapes showing up as the genes accumulate. So, instead of a largely-white horse being a result of one small white shape added onto another small white shape until most of the horse is covered, it being more of genes building up for a certain PATN (or maybe even multiple PATNs) until we get to see close to the whole expression of the ultimate pattern further down in the generations.

Maybe whether this is true or not is common knowledge already, or has otherwise already been answered, but it's something that I personally have been wondering about.

[BlackOak2]

Oh, wow! That's extremely interesting. I hadn't noticed those sorts of lines before, but I had noticed identical base-shapes of white on related horses, with nothing but the colored spots and some of the edging different in a few places. And then, those identical shapes could be seen making up larger patterns of white further down the family tree as more white is revealed on the offspring.

So, something that I've been wondering is if maybe there are "maximum" expressions of each PATN, with more and more of those ultimate shapes showing up as the genes accumulate. So, instead of a largely-white horse being a result of one small white shape added onto another small white shape until most of the horse is covered, it being more of genes building up for a certain PATN (or maybe even multiple PATNs) until we get to see close to the whole expression of the ultimate pattern further down in the generations.

Maybe whether this is true or not is common knowledge already, or has otherwise already been answered, but it's something that I personally have been wondering about.

Much of this game has firm planting in fact; things that are already proven. Some of it has been embellished. For instance, in real life, dapples can be seen on a lot of different color horses, not just the black-based horses that carry silver (like in the game).
Like in real life, there is a PATN1 in the game that handles both near-leopard and full-leopard. But to help distinguish between the two, and offer a differing appearance for our horses (so they all don't come out looking exactly the same, or exactly the same with only five different versions, like in other games), there are layering patterns that help define the horses. It reminds me just now, that there are art programs that allow you to write on different layers and move the layers up and down, so you can create different appearances. The same techniques (or similar) appear to also be at work here.
What we don't know is what PATN and which genes or alleles are responsible for what coverage. If it follows real life more accurately, PATN2 (which is any pattern that is not PATN1) cannot make a full-leopard, but can come really close (if I remember my recent reading correctly from a genetics site). The only way you can get a full-leopard or a false, full-leopard (in real life) is to have your horse carry and express the PATN1 gene (the false, full-leopard being an expression of the PATN1 gene that is not full-leopard, but looks just like a full-leopard).
So how close is this game to real life? Can we have a PATN2 carrier look full-leopard? Can a PATN1, non-full leopard offer the false, full-leopard? And is the PATN1 full leopard able to offer the full-leopard patterning to a horse that does not carry enough PATN genes to offer it in any other way?
I'm working toward full-leopard, one way or another, and it looks like I'm working toward it in the PATN2 path. Meanwhile, I'm attempting to locate which breed actually carries the PATN1 full leopard.

[Stick]

Oooh... see, I'm a general genetics nerd, but I've never been able to get a handle on horse coloration. I had no idea about there only being PATN 1 and "PATN 2," and so have been thinking about how these genes work completely differently than how they apparently do in real life.

I think I've been thinking of it on a much more digital level, guessing at how the mechanics of the visual-expressions have been coded into the game, along with wondering about the "layering" thing you're mentioning.

I should probably stop trying to classify and figure things out so mechanically then, and get back to how actual equine genes work, since the game has been modeled so closely to them. I guess I'm just too used to less-complicated games, and more obvious variables, haha.

[BlackOak2]

Oooh... see, I'm a general genetics nerd, but I've never been able to get a handle on horse coloration. I had no idea about there only being PATN 1 and "PATN 2," and so have been thinking about how these genes work completely differently than how they apparently do in real life.

I think I've been thinking of it on a much more digital level, guessing at how the mechanics of the visual-expressions have been coded into the game, along with wondering about the "layering" thing you're mentioning.

I should probably stop trying to classify and figure things out so mechanically then, and get back to how actual equine genes work, since the game has been modeled so closely to them. I guess I'm just too used to less-complicated games, and more obvious variables, haha.

You might also find interesting, this site that I found interesting (I'm not the only one). Plus there's some interesting details that Totina and I got into in the later half of this post about leopards.

I really should have gotten into genetics (growing up it was a passion of mine, and so easy for me to follow the basics), but the money and time involved just to get the schooling done with no guarantee of a job to be able to pay it back was... something I was unsure I wanted to risk.
That said, I'm right there with you on being a 'genetics nerd' as you so aptly put it. And although this game may be involved, it's really made not much differently than the rest. It all still works on the on-switch, off-switch, it just has oh... I don't know... a thousand more than some other games.
The big difference between this game and real life (right now anyway) is there is no danger of mutations. So something that should be one way, will always come out one way (unless a horse you had genetically identified one way actually had another modifier or whatever). For instance a cream and pearl horse can be misidentified as a double cream.
But you're not wrong when you go the mechanical route to identification. You just have to remember that instead of just one arm moving the piston, you can have three... or four... or five arms moving it. Okay, bad scenario, but I think I've offered my point.

[Stick]

Yeah, your piston analogy kind of sums up how I'd been looking at this in a way that is probably wrong--or at least oversimplified.

How I'd been viewing it before is there being a number of PATNs (I'd assumed there were 26, since that number was mentioned on the original appaloosa info graphic), each of a different shape and/or amount of white, and PATN 1 just happened to be the one that would reveal the most white. I hadn't been thinking about leopards or near leopards or false leopards, or that there might be more-complicated mechanics at play.

The tricky part now is trying to figure out how I'm going to modify my breeding plans to set up some good experiments for gen 2 and beyond.

[BlackOak2]

Yeah, your piston analogy kind of sums up how I'd been looking at this in a way that is probably wrong--or at least oversimplified.

How I'd been viewing it before is there being a number of PATNs (I'd assumed there were 26, since that number was mentioned on the original appaloosa info graphic), each of a different shape and/or amount of white, and PATN 1 just happened to be the one that would reveal the most white. I hadn't been thinking about leopards or near leopards or false leopards, or that there might be more-complicated mechanics at play.

The tricky part now is trying to figure out how I'm going to modify my breeding plans to set up some good experiments for gen 2 and beyond.

You started out alright. Working on just snowflakes, you suddenly bred a blanket. Which means that a snowflake parent can have a blanket offspring. But it doesn't always produce them. Since there are 2 genes that are connected to snowflake, this could mean that one has a modifier to it that can produce blankets given some... thing... two of the same, or an incomplete dominant, meaning it needs the other gene (at least) to express. I don't believe we knew this before, I certainly didn't. But for what reason? Can you make more? Can you increase the size of the blanket, without using PATN horses?
Working with the snowflake may offer us more insight into the PATN genes, at least in the area of which areas are affected. For instance... hips are distinctly affected by two overlaying patterns, because parent one offers one style of snowflakes, parent two offers a completely different style, and foal show both styles.

But it all comes down to what you want to look at and if you want to share your findings. My goals are less about learning the patterns and what affects what and more about creating a full leopard tarpan. The reason I have notes about all the rest of it (because I'm a little OCD, of course, don't we all have a little...) is nominally because some of it actually affects my project.
If you keep your goal small, than you should be able to achieve it kind of quickly. And you probably aren't too far off of the PATN belief you considered. We just don't know if they're all about one thing (areas distinctly) which is doubtful, or about two things (half for areas, half for amount in each area), or about a couple things (areas, amount, density...). Well, they all do work in conjunction with one another. Which makes it all a bit more difficult to figure out.

Whoops... I think I rambled a bit. I've been known to do that.

Anyway, it certainly is an interesting game that offers a lot of possibilities, it just comes down to what you want to make your goal.