€R♛ Royale - (Farm Log)

[BlackOak2]

...

Since you appear to be beginning to delve into your new projects now, I'll give you a quick update on my conclusions I've found thus far. However, some of these may not be hard set (with different beginning stock, you may find different results).

By using the conformation evaluation and the report, evaluating the resulting offspring of a limited number of AC horses. Arabians, Forest Horses, Turkmene, Przewalski, Tarpan (these are the only ones I found with potentially acceptable bases).
From these, the conclusions are as follows (like I said, take these with a grain of salt, or a whole bucketful):
1) Balance conformation appears to move very easily (regardless of gene movement for balance).
2) Arabian and Forest crosses appear to easily increase balance, movement and tempo conformation (unknown gene movement for these).
3) Arabian and Forest crosses also appear to do nothing for speed and strength (it doesn't strengthen or weaken either), however, this cross does appear to even out both of these across both genes and conformation. (So if you have a weak parent in these, then crossing to the opposite breed should even those genes and conformation score out)
4) Conformation scores average in the 30's regularly. What I mean is, of the seven conformation stat scores there is, most appear to end up in the 30 range. AC stock only.
5) It appears that most often, conformation scores within the 25 to 35 range will have an average report comment. AC stock only.
6) For base building (not refining the horse), HGP does appear to be a good gauge, insofar as higher does equal a better offspring (overall) and lower does equal a worse offspring (overall). Over or under both parents. However... see #7
7) Once base building is complete, HGP does not appear to be a solid gauge for 'is this horse better then the parents'. **** number 6 & 7 is still in the process of understanding ****
8) Tarpans appear to greatly drop both strength and speed conformation, but may in fact have strong base genes for these two stats.
9) Arabians, Forests and Turkmenes all move balance and movement conformation upward a great deal (unknown about gene movement however).

And!!!
10) It appears that if there's a lot of comment improvement (over either or both parents), it's likely from conformation and unlikely from massive gene improvement.


That's what I've got so far. But really, none of this was information that we didn't already know, or didn't already suspect.


Edit: Rereading my work, I'm correcting a mistake in #4... the word 'must' should have been the word 'most'.

[Royale Ranch]

....

Thanks a million for putting this together, extremely helpful!
Sorry I havent been back to you earlier....

As I wrote in my earlier posts, right now I'm focusing on the Australian breeding, mostly because it's slightly faster moving than what the Arabian project will be, and I'm more confident with the Australians at the moment.

However, I will get back to it pretty soon. Thanks so much for your support!

Royale

[BlackOak2]

....

Thanks a million for putting this together, extremely helpful!
Sorry I havent been back to you earlier....

As I wrote in my earlier posts, right now I'm focusing on the Australian breeding, mostly because it's slightly faster moving than what the Arabian project will be, and I'm more confident with the Australians at the moment.

However, I will get back to it pretty soon. Thanks so much for your support!

Royale

I'd rather get information to you earlier and have you stew on it, then be in constant contact and talk about... really nothing... that doesn't help the project move forward.

So you don't need to apologize. I know you're online, I'm sure you've seen it and I'm also sure that when you are looking for some additional aid, you'll ping either me or somebody else in the community.

There are two more conclusions that I've come to in this project myself. Again, however, it's common sense and what we've already experienced, but... my own project has appeared to confirm it.

11) It appears to take at least three generations of breeding toward one goal to begin to see results in that area. This is not based on direct inbreeding, but on the horses and what they carry themselves.
12) To see gene movement either upward or downward, conf score needs to be nominal with report offering changes. What I mean is, the breeder's report comments need to change with the conformation scores remaining similar to the parents. I've been using score movement within 5 points of either parent as an acceptable base.

[Royale Ranch]

Thanks a million for putting this together, extremely helpful!
Sorry I havent been back to you earlier....

As I wrote in my earlier posts, right now I'm focusing on the Australian breeding, mostly because it's slightly faster moving than what the Arabian project will be, and I'm more confident with the Australians at the moment.

However, I will get back to it pretty soon. Thanks so much for your support!

Royale

I'd rather get information to you earlier and have you stew on it, then be in constant contact and talk about... really nothing... that doesn't help the project move forward.

So you don't need to apologize. I know you're online, I'm sure you've seen it and I'm also sure that when you are looking for some additional aid, you'll ping either me or somebody else in the community.

There are two more conclusions that I've come to in this project myself. Again, however, it's common sense and what we've already experienced, but... my own project has appeared to confirm it.

11) It appears to take at least three generations of breeding toward one goal to begin to see results in that area. This is not based on direct inbreeding, but on the horses and what they carry themselves.
12) To see gene movement either upward or downward, conf score needs to be nominal with report offering changes. What I mean is, the breeder's report comments need to change with the conformation scores remaining similar to the parents. I've been using score movement within 5 points of either parent as an acceptable base.

all that you said to start with - so true and this is probably a worthless post,but anyhow

Love that second point that you made, extremely interesting! It's a great guide when it comes to culling/keeping new foals, if that is the direction the particular project is taking.
The first point, too; is encouraging.

......................

I wrote a whole lot below that line, but figured i might as well turn it into an update, so see my second post when its published

[Royale Ranch]

UPDATE: May 24, 2019

Right now, I have successfully bred exmoors and WAB's, and Akhal-Teke's but struggling with the Mongolians.

Why those horses?
Overall goal: Australian Brumby
As this is a huge goal, there are a number of goals underneath that to reach it:
- Australian stock horse
- TB

a TB consists of a galloway and Akel-teke
a Galloway consists of Exmoor's and a freesian
a freesian uses an andulasion
an Andulasion uses, amongst others, multiple WAB's and Mongolians.



Now, Mongolians:
Their genetic makeup is:

(Tarpan x Przwalski) x Tarpan

possibly find it the most difficult because its hard to judge how much the second generation breeding will alter the scores. (the Tarpan x Prz cross breeding with the second Tarpan)


Mongolian:
Height: 11.3hh to 14.0hh
Build: Medium to Medium Heavy
Body Size 40% to 60%
Type: 50% to 70% Pony Type

Tarpan
Height: 11.2hh to 14.0hh
Build: Medium Light to Medium
Body Size: 25% to 45%
Type: 60% Horse Type to 65% Pony Type

Przewalski Horse
Height: 11.2hh to 13.3hh
Build: Medium Light to Medium
Body Size: 40% to 60%
Type: 60% Horse Type to 60% Pony Type

So, theoretically speaking:
Height: shouldn't be too much trouble.
Build: Choose "medium" size horses over "medium light" also choose horses on the bulkier side, and more pony type
Body size: Big struggle, from experience. the Tarpan will always bring the body size down, esp. with the second breeding, so choose as bulky as possible for both breeds.
Type: (dont really understand this, but anyhow:)

I have been purchasing mares from the AC, or AC horses from Sales when possible, and mostly using studs from the market (also AC horses.)

as a rule of thumb, I choose two mares from each type of horse, and breed with 2 or more studs.

Tarpan Mare 1: "Jolly the Chamber"
*3
Height: 11.3hh to 14.0hh (11.1hh)**
Build Medium to Medium Heavy (Medium)
Body Size 40% to 60% (34.2%)
50% to 70% Pony Type (52% Pony)

Tarpan Mare 2:
*2
Height: 11.3hh to 14.0hh (12.1hh)
Build Medium to Medium Heavy (Medium Light)**
Body Size 40% to 60% (33.75%)**
50% to 70% Pony Type (52% Horse)**


So, keeping in mind that the foal will be bred with another Tarpan, the Prz Stud will, ideally, Look something like:
Height: Heigher end of scale (~13.0hh)
Build: Medium (unlikely to get heavier, but choose as heavy as possible)
Body Size: biggest struggle: get as high as possible, because naturally the Tarpans are a lot lower
Type: As much pony as possible (within reason )


Przewalski Mare 1: Crazy Reality
*4
Height: 11.3hh to 14.0hh (11.2hh)**
Build Medium to Medium Heavy (Medium)
Body Size 40% to 60% (47.7%)
50% to 70% Pony Type (51% Pony )

Przewalski Mare 2: Home bound Derivative
*2
Height: 11.3hh to 14.0hh (11.3hh)
Build Medium to Medium Heavy (Medium)**
Body Size 40% to 60% (38.25%)**
50% to 70% Pony Type (52% Pony )**

Przewalski Mare 3: Siberian Tenderness
*4
Height: 11.3hh to 14.0hh (11.2hh)*
Build Medium to Medium Heavy (Medium)
Body Size 40% to 60% (46.35%)
50% to 70% Pony Type (56% Pony )

So, simular to what i said about the stud above, the mares need a stud that is:
Height: Taller end of scale
Build: Medium to Medium Heavy if possible
Body Size: This is where the trouble comes in. Mare 1 and 3 are good, but dont think mare 2 makes the cut. Tarpans dont have the body size that Przewalski's do, so look for as high as possible.
Type: As pony as possible.


Now, I do have some foals but before I do anything more, I think i need to focus on getting a foal that meets the folowing:

Mongolian:
Height: 11.5hh to 14.0hh (higher than min, because T will bring down)
Build: Medium to Medium Heavy (heavier rather than lighter, as above)
Body Size 45% to 60% (Big focus here. Heavier build is an absolute MUST.
Type: 50% to 70% Pony Type (also issue here. if not a pony, cull.

3 foals have so far, almost met expectations.

From here:
1. Create 4 foals that reach above benchmark.
2. hopefully, fingers crossed, breed a mongolian!

ps - if anyone has experience in this area, or if anyone can see somewhere i'm going wrong, please let me know - will be glad of any help!

[Royale Ranch]

okay, so following on from above, I've (tried) to implement what i've established...

and results? nope.

All I am getting is Exmoors (in a abundance), with a *5 eval for Mongolians
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1954645


and

a random cross, which should have been a Mongolian but isn't, despite the *5 Eval.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1954657

some help, please?

[BlackOak2]

okay, so following on from above, I've (tried) to implement what i've established...

and results? nope.

All I am getting is Exmoors (in a abundance), with a *5 eval for Mongolians
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1954645


and

a random cross, which should have been a Mongolian but isn't, despite the *5 Eval.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1954657

some help, please?

You know, it's really funny. On my first account (it's sleeping right now), I had no problem with mongolians (even had a little problem popping an exmoor), but on this account, I struggled really hard with them just like you are.

You understand your problem really well. Tarpans tend to favor horse types and sizes more toward the 30% area and mongolians, though nominal, are easily affected by the tarpan favoritism.

So there are a couple ways that you can help this. If, for the moment, you can ignore a little bit of inbreeding, take that prze, tarpan cross failure and use her. Breed her to the heaviest tarpan stud you have and see if you can't make a tarpan that's a bit heavier (you may just pop a mongolian with her)... OR... you can take her and cross her into the heaviest prze you have to create a heavier favoring cross.
It ends up still being the proverbial flip of the coin, even if all stats are within acceptable areas for the new breed. Plus the failure filly, her parents could still pop a mongolian, since they popped one within acceptable standards.

The good thing is that with the simple fact that you're producing exmoors in abundance, does mean that you're breeding the correct mixes together for the mongolian. Of course the bad news is, you keep getting exmoors instead of crosses. The only way to prevent it is to cross outside of the exmoor stats, but that will defeat the purpose for getting a good mongolian cross parent.

And once you've created one mongolian fresh, you can always breed back to purebred using the AC stock you already have. That's a pain, but it's an option.

Your failure filly is still very usable for the mongolian project.
As for the exmoor's, I'd suggest only keeping the ones that favor the size and type you're in need of most to breed the galloway (40-60 size & 50-70 Pony). I'd suggest, since freisians are another difficult breed, you favor as heavy as you can get for the exmoors.
Friesians are not easy (their mix favors light as well) and Andalusions are not easy either. The problem with them exists in the arabians. Which is the entire reason I developed a line of heavy arabians.
You may need to take one of your AC pony-type horses and breed a heavier beginning point before you can get where you need to go... OR... create a line favoring the heavier side by inbreeding and only keeping the foals that are the heaviest.
Especially since you're building from scratch.

Although I know you want to keep COI down, right now focus on the outcome. In the future, you can drop COI in your end breed, the australians, by creating a Grade horse from AC stock (you'll need 4 different breeds) and breeding a half australian, then breed that one back into your stock. You'll immediately cut your COI percentage by half. And so forth. You can even use the AC stock you have right now, if you freeze it. They should be much more than 7 generations out at that point.
In fact, you can use this grade technique to breed a heavy-favoring half or part arabian to help with this project when arabs are needed in the recipe and still be breeding from scratch.

Does this help at all?

[Royale Ranch]

"So there are a couple ways that you can help this. If, for the moment, you can ignore a little bit of inbreeding, take that prze, tarpan cross failure and use her. Breed her to the heaviest tarpan stud you have and see if you can't make a tarpan that's a bit heavier (you may just pop a mongolian with her)... OR... you can take her and cross her into the heaviest prze you have to create a heavier favoring cross.
It ends up still being the proverbial flip of the coin, even if all stats are within acceptable areas for the new breed. Plus the failure filly, her parents could still pop a mongolian, since they popped one within acceptable standards."

.....


"Your failure filly is still very usable for the mongolian project.
As for the exmoor's, I'd suggest only keeping the ones that favor the size and type you're in need of most to breed the galloway (40-60 size & 50-70 Pony). I'd suggest, since freisians are another difficult breed, you favor as heavy as you can get for the exmoors.
Friesians are not easy (their mix favors light as well) and Andalusions are not easy either. The problem with them exists in the arabians. Which is the entire reason I developed a line of heavy arabians.
You may need to take one of your AC pony-type horses and breed a heavier beginning point before you can get where you need to go... OR... create a line favoring the heavier side by inbreeding and only keeping the foals that are the heaviest.
Especially since you're building from scratch."

......

"Does this help at all?"

Thanks so much for your advice... after a few more rounds of trying, look what happened!!! >>
"Victorious Cobweb" (First Mongolian!)


I was going to ask at some stage about using the failed crosses to create the Mongolian, but looks like you read my mind!

Note that this colt is from a "Part Przewalski Horse x Tarpan [80%]" mix...
anyhow, thanks!

[BlackOak2]

Thanks so much for your advice... after a few more rounds of trying, look what happened!!! >>

I was going to ask at some stage about using the failed crosses to create the Mongolian, but looks like you read my mind!

Note that this colt is from a "Part Przewalski Horse x Tarpan [80%]" mix...
anyhow, thanks!

Congrats!
I've actually made a new breed from a sanhe that was somewhere in the low single digit or teen-digit percentage rates (5 to 19%), so it certainly doesn't appear to affect any recipe (just like our admins have said it shouldn't), as long as the recipe is correct, it still works.
So again, Congratulations!

And... don't tell anybody I can read minds!

**Hoping for more mongolians for you! To make what you need to use.

[Royale Ranch]

Thanks so much for your advice... after a few more rounds of trying, look what happened!!! >>

I was going to ask at some stage about using the failed crosses to create the Mongolian, but looks like you read my mind!

Note that this colt is from a "Part Przewalski Horse x Tarpan [80%]" mix...
anyhow, thanks!

Congrats!
I've actually made a new breed from a sanhe that was somewhere in the low single digit or teen-digit percentage rates (5 to 19%), so it certainly doesn't appear to affect any recipe (just like our admins have said it shouldn't), as long as the recipe is correct, it still works.
So again, Congratulations!

And... don't tell anybody I can read minds!

**Hoping for more Mongolians for you! To make what you need to use.

i know your post was a long time ago.. but that slightly supernatural power you have there seemed to work... I got oodles of successful foals after that!

thanks for clearing up the "breed recipe" phenomenon.... its really helped me create some other breeds as well