Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

[Gaagii]

Another interesting feathered


Here's a twist on the black

The sire is plume feathered - sire black AC belgian x dame plume feathered
The dame is plume with to my memory no black back generations.

A hidden black gene disguised by plume? And plume doesn't work on black, still?

[BlackOak2]

Another interesting feathered


Here's a twist on the black

The sire is plume feathered - sire black AC belgian x dame plume feathered
The dame is plume with to my memory no black back generations.

A hidden black gene disguised by plume? And plume doesn't work on black, still?

Well, a bay can't be a bay without at least a single 'E' black extension gene. So eventually throwing a black is understandable in a line of bays and browns, understanding the assumption that evidently the bay lineage continued to pass on only a single agouti gene.

Like I think I said before, I found the Lp extension beyond the neck only after I bred back into a black AC belgian. So there could very well be some hidden genes specifically for black that appears to be recessive. It took me three generations and two black AC belgians before I got mine (and still I think it was sheer luck).

That being said, I certainly would have expected SOMETHING to have shown up when doubling back like you did. There does appear to be something in the base of the tail. However, that could as much be my monitor then something actually being there.

Did you see Stick's recent posting? There are some questions at the end that you might be able to chime in on:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 13&t=18380

After all, you are now the 'expert' on plume.

[Gaagii]

Well, a bay can't be a bay without at least a single 'E' black extension gene. So eventually throwing a black is understandable in a line of bays and browns, understanding the assumption that evidently the bay lineage continued to pass on only a single agouti gene.

True. I forgot about that, I blame being tired (too much work between job & horses irl).

Like I think I said before, I found the Lp extension beyond the neck only after I bred back into a black AC belgian. So there could very well be some hidden genes specifically for black that appears to be recessive. It took me three generations and two black AC belgians before I got mine (and still I think it was sheer luck).

That being said, I certainly would have expected SOMETHING to have shown up when doubling back like you did. There does appear to be something in the base of the tail. However, that could as much be my monitor then something actually being there.

You're not entirely wrong

It's very teeny but there is a slight hint of white on my monitor (or maybe just my monitor).

Did you see Stick's recent posting? There are some questions at the end that you might be able to chime in on:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 13&t=18380

After all, you are now the 'expert' on plume.

lol. No I didn't see that post but will take a peek.

[Gaagii]

In response to the questions linked above by blackoak2.
Okay I'll chime in.

General expression
The 'plume' gene I believe is incomplete as mane is separate to tail, mane/tail is separate to fetlocks. You can get horses with just mane or just mane/tail and no fetlocks.
As I said on the first page of here there appears to be three types of expression - high, normal and low.

This is a fully expressed plume with mane, tail & fetlocks

and with feathers
.
.

Plume versus Lp expression
You gotta keep an eye on your foals - if they don't have fetlocks - as they mature to tell the difference between the two as Lp can make the mane lighten before the body from what I've seen.

This is a plume + Lp horse
baby
1 year
3 years
13 years
You can see when Magic is 1 year old he has typical fallen over (high) plume expression as a foal.

This is another plume + Lp horse.
Here you can see her mane at 1 year is obviously plume while her tail isn't. If she were Lp, from what I've seen, both should be lightened together

2 years & tail has caught up
13 years

.
.
Bay Points vs Silver Fetlocks
Silver fetlocks affects black not red hairs.
If a horse has silver the bay points either entirely lack or are diluted. The silver fetlocks can, like the bay points, extend quite far or remain close to the fetlocks themselves.

This is an example of a silver fetlock + diluted bay points
10 years

This is an example of silver fetlock - bay points
4 years

This is an example of weaker silver fetlock


This is an example of the weakest silver fetlock


.
.

Silver Fetlock Expression
As blackoak2 said the silver overlaps everything on the fetlock.


.


As you can see the pangare is cream while the silver fetlock is actually a sort of metallic silver/greyish-white.

[BlackOak2]

...

Those silvered feathers still get me!
I almost want to start drooling, they're really that nice in my opinion.

And thank you for chiming in. That did clear up some things for me as well.

[Gaagii]

I sort of put those earlier "flaxen chestnuts" that pop up aside while working on the leopard + plume.

"flaxen chestnut" via plume ancestry

with leopard

If blackoak2's assumption is right - that these "flaxen chestnuts" pop up when the plume is intense - it'd be interesting to see how this horse's plume marking may manifest as leopard progresses. With non leopard "flaxen chestnuts" the mane just stays as it is, off white to white.

You can see it's still got a dun-like stripe in the mane.

[BlackOak2]

That is seriously some kind of horse!

Roan, dun,bay with snowflakes. The only thing missing is bright green eyes. After taking a third look at her, I realize I'm being thick and she's a chestnut. Her muzzle really appears to be a black point, i.e. bay.

But I don't have anything new to add otherwise... except to send this mare to the favorites post.

Edited to correct color

[Gaagii]

That is seriously some kind of horse!

Roan, dun,bay with snowflakes. The only thing missing is bright green eyes. After taking a third look at her, I realize I'm being thick and she's a chestnut. Her muzzle really appears to be a black point, i.e. bay.

But I don't have anything new to add otherwise... except to send this mare to the favorites post.

Edited to correct color

Thanks. I thought she was an eye catcher.

And you're right her muzzle is really dark which makes me wonder if these horses are even chestnut or something odd. Look at her legs. Is that typical of chestnut, the diluted bay-like points? She's almost like my bay duns whose legs show dilute points with silver fetlocks except her mane/tail's "flaxen".
Example >

I am toying with real chestnut (AC arabs) to see if 'plume' works on actual chestnuts.


Btw you mentioned something about bright green eyes,
a light plume

[BlackOak2]

Thanks. I thought she was an eye catcher.

And you're right her muzzle is really dark which makes me wonder if these horses are even chestnut or something odd. Look at her legs. Is that typical of chestnut, the diluted bay-like points? She's almost like my bay duns whose legs show dilute points with silver fetlocks except her mane/tail's "flaxen".
Example >

I am toying with real chestnut (AC arabs) to see if 'plume' works on actual chestnuts.


Btw you mentioned something about bright green eyes,

That's what got me at first, her nose shows so much of her actual skin color, for quite a few minutes my mind wasn't processing that I was looking at a bay... rather a chestnut... and yet she was bay... no, she is chestnut!
Her foal picture gives away her real color.

A chestnut foal will have bright red mane and tail as a newborn:


Whereas a bay foal will have a darker mane and tail as a newborn, that's a color, not-quite-red:


In most cases, it's distinctly gray or brown like in the second picture, sometimes it's not that distinctive. But chestnut-based foals always have that red (or lighter for flaxen) manes and tails. And that mare definitely had that, thus... Chestnut Based!
And that was the way my mind had to revisit for redefining her color.

... I really did think she was bay...

What makes her look even more unusual is the fact that she has dun. And that's where her coat takes on a bay-like look. Those danged dun and pangare genes really change the way a horse can look.

Oh! I found an early one that offers a good example of red dun changing the way a horse looks:

I know this one appears to have that plume gene on the legs as well... but... but... it shouldn't be... now that I'm looking at it, it could be, however, it's more likely from dun.

I think I'm seeing too much plume! Plume on everything!

So, the diluted-bay-like points is from the dun gene and likely a dose of sooty as well. At least, that's my opinion. I could be wrong about that.

Some of those AC arabs will still have flaxen, plus it's a recessive gene, so you may still get flaxen intermixed again, however, fresh blood will help to refine and define certain things.

Those green eyes. I've been wondering recently, if anybody has had success in breeding certain color gradients of green. Some of the horses are bright green, others are not so bright, so it's been making me wonder (other than the one gene, two gene tiger eye exceptions), if the expression of the green is linked and passable, like every other gene on this game...

[Gaagii]

@blackoak2 - regarding the tiger eye 'color gradient' I don't think anyone has bred for intensity just the eyes themselves. Might be wrong.

Newest additions


&