Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

[BlackOak2]

Btw about the silver fetlocks & feathers:
The feathers are, in a way, coming out silver.


Dame for comparison

Although pangare will also color the feathers... It looks like to me that this is the silver plume and not just the pangare. Pangare feathering will be the same color as the pangare on the legs (I haven't dealt with it much so I can't recall that much about pangare feathering), that much I do remember. What I don't remember is if pangare will always color feathering, if it will sometimes not color feathering and if the feathering on one part will be pangare-colored while other parts of the feather will not be pangare-colored.

In this case, it certainly looks like some of the feathers are bleached lighter, while other parts are not affected. Plus, the silvering does appear to be coming from the back of the ankle and forward, like the plume gene affects.

Really looks like the horse had been ridden in a dusty arena.

It is neat to see that each leg feathering appears to be affected slightly differently with slightly different expressions, but I think that's more just the way it's programmed and not an actual difference in expressions.

[Gaagii]

Although pangare will also color the feathers... It looks like to me that this is the silver plume and not just the pangare. Pangare feathering will be the same color as the pangare on the legs (I haven't dealt with it much so I can't recall that much about pangare feathering), that much I do remember. What I don't remember is if pangare will always color feathering, if it will sometimes not color feathering and if the feathering on one part will be pangare-colored while other parts of the feather will not be pangare-colored.

In this case, it certainly looks like some of the feathers are bleached lighter, while other parts are not affected. Plus, the silvering does appear to be coming from the back of the ankle and forward, like the plume gene affects.

Really looks like the horse had been ridden in a dusty arena.

It is neat to see that each leg feathering appears to be affected slightly differently with slightly different expressions, but I think that's more just the way it's programmed and not an actual difference in expressions.

Pangare, I believe, keeps it relatively the same as the legs as you mentioned. I was going through some belgians on the AC and that's how it appeared. At the least the feathers more one color - either black, beige-like - with white (spotting) being very obvious.



With Steadfast it's well two-toned. Grey/silver for the top where the fetlocks are and black at the bottom with the pastern/hoof.

This (May) is a weaker silver fetlock for comparison. As you can see like Steadfast it sort of merges into the black like well "dusty" feathers.



.
.
.

Btw Romping
7 years

&

10 years


&

13 years



It's interesting that you can see where the 'plume' was in a way but the tail remains relatively untouched 'silvered'.

I wonder if higher expressed plume - as the plume was light - would make the 'plume' line more obvious in the varnish/leopard.

[BlackOak2]

Pangare, I believe, keeps it relatively the same as the legs as you mentioned. I was going through some belgians on the AC and that's how it appeared. At the least the feathers more one color - either black, beige-like - with white (spotting) being very obvious.

With Steadfast it's well two-toned. Grey/silver for the top where the fetlocks are and black at the bottom with the pastern/hoof.

This (May) is a weaker silver fetlock for comparison. As you can see like Steadfast it sort of merges into the black like well "dusty" feathers.

That's the same conclusion I was drawing (still needed to dot the i's and cross the t's).

Btw Romping


It's interesting that you can see where the 'plume' was in a way but the tail remains relatively untouched 'silvered'.

I wonder if higher expressed plume - as the plume was light - would make the 'plume' line more obvious in the varnish/leopard.

I would say yes, it would make it more distinct. From working with the Lp, two things will be needed to make this more expressive, a stronger plume expression in both silver coloration and height and then also a stronger varnish expression. I've been looking around the site recently and it seems there is appearing more varnish horses that are expressing a slower, less strong varnish.

From the progression, I am wondering if it's a combination of sooty and varnish at this point. It doesn't appear there's too much varnishing going on, a bit, but not much. This may be the other reason why the plume varnish negative isn't as expressive as well.

Tarpans from the AC tend to varnish really quickly. Plus they're relatively safe, always bay dun with no dilutions and no pangare. They have limited feather possibility and their sooty is relatively obvious.

[Gaagii]

Feathers answered. Improbable Awe has nice silvered fetlocks and minimal/weak pangare.


.

.

[BlackOak2]

Feathers answered. Improbable Awe has nice silvered fetlocks and minimal/weak pangare.

Gorgeous.
We can really see that the plume-silvered feathers follows the silver 'from the back of the ankle forward'.

These horses are beginning to not look like the base colors they are.
Improbably Awe is really beginning to look like a silver bay pangare rather than bay pangare with the plume gene.

[Gaagii]

Another feathers this time with very obvious pangare.

[BlackOak2]

Another feathers this time with very obvious pangare.

Also worth noting that where the pangare ends into the black points of bay, so does the feather color, but not the plume silver. Plume silver overtakes the black somewhat and still colors the feathers.

But that makes sense, since pangare doesn't affect 'black', then it wouldn't discolor even the black points on bays.

However, in this case, the question about plume affecting black, in this case it does affect the black legs on bay.

[Gaagii]

Another feathers this time with very obvious pangare.

Also worth noting that where the pangare ends into the black points of bay, so does the feather color, but not the plume silver. Plume silver overtakes the black somewhat and still colors the feathers.

But that makes sense, since pangare doesn't affect 'black', then it wouldn't discolor even the black points on bays.

However, in this case, the question about plume affecting black, in this case it does affect the black legs on bay.

A very good point. Which is why I am thinking that this is related the bay somehow.

If it was associated with black then black should be colored. But black/plume crosses habitually throws non plume bays/occasional chestnut. Also it seems that the black dilutes it in a way for lack of a better word, a couple of horses from black / plume bay crosses then crossed to another plume do not also result in plume foals.

The darkest I've encountered aside from that pseudo black sooty is a mid "chocolate" bay (blackxplume) which I'm gonna try to reproduce as a line. If I can get dark pseudo-black bays that'd be cool.

But the bay idea also goes with chestnut.

Admittedly I haven't really worked with chestnut or brown but a couple of pages back mentioned that it doesn't seem to be related to chestnut itself despite the "flaxen chestnuts" that pop up.


It's an interesting color to work with at least.

[BlackOak2]

A very good point. Which is why I am thinking that this is related the bay somehow.

If it was associated with black then black should be colored. But black/plume crosses habitually throws non plume bays/occasional chestnut. Also it seems that the black dilutes it in a way for lack of a better word, a couple of horses from black / plume bay crosses then crossed to another plume do not also result in plume foals.

The darkest I've encountered aside from that pseudo black sooty is a mid "chocolate" bay (blackxplume) which I'm gonna try to reproduce as a line. If I can get dark pseudo-black bays that'd be cool.

But the bay idea also goes with chestnut.

Admittedly I haven't really worked with chestnut or brown but a couple of pages back mentioned that it doesn't seem to be related to chestnut itself despite the "flaxen chestnuts" that pop up.


It's an interesting color to work with at least.

It is very interesting.
Of course, it could still be that black is just a really difficult color to work with. When Silverine, Totina and I were all trying to get the Lp gene up beyond the neck, it took us I think a couple months for ANY of us to accomplish the goal. That would be HUNDREDS of horses bred and rebred and again, generation after generation.

After I finally had one born, they bred to him to produce the first cross-over into the black extension beyond neck as well. What I'm saying is, that the black coat color may have a specific gene that needs to be found in order for the black to be affected by it. We still haven't found leopard complex 1, we only have leopard complex 2 (the difference is, Lp2 creates blankets, Lp1 is total coat coverage or none at all).

But right now, I'm still sitting on the side of black isn't affected, until it's proven otherwise.

[Gaagii]

A very good point. Which is why I am thinking that this is related the bay somehow.

If it was associated with black then black should be colored. But black/plume crosses habitually throws non plume bays/occasional chestnut. Also it seems that the black dilutes it in a way for lack of a better word, a couple of horses from black / plume bay crosses then crossed to another plume do not also result in plume foals.

The darkest I've encountered aside from that pseudo black sooty is a mid "chocolate" bay (blackxplume) which I'm gonna try to reproduce as a line. If I can get dark pseudo-black bays that'd be cool.

But the bay idea also goes with chestnut.

Admittedly I haven't really worked with chestnut or brown but a couple of pages back mentioned that it doesn't seem to be related to chestnut itself despite the "flaxen chestnuts" that pop up.


It's an interesting color to work with at least.

It is very interesting.
Of course, it could still be that black is just a really difficult color to work with. When Silverine, Totina and I were all trying to get the Lp gene up beyond the neck, it took us I think a couple months for ANY of us to accomplish the goal. That would be HUNDREDS of horses bred and rebred and again, generation after generation.

After I finally had one born, they bred to him to produce the first cross-over into the black extension beyond neck as well. What I'm saying is, that the black coat color may have a specific gene that needs to be found in order for the black to be affected by it. We still haven't found leopard complex 1, we only have leopard complex 2 (the difference is, Lp2 creates blankets, Lp1 is total coat coverage or none at all).

But right now, I'm still sitting on the side of black isn't affected, until it's proven otherwise.

It is possible that plume has to be 'worked into' the black gene. This may be represented by, what I'm referring to as, "chocolate" bay. I'll keep working on integrating black into the gene pool (as well as chestnut, brown).

I have an growing line of:
Varnish / plume
Pangare / plume
Sooty / plume
Feathers / plume
Roan / plume
Dilute / plume
Dun / plume

All in bay.

And am working on a few others.