Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

[Gaagii]

Got it!
And also, very nice horse pic, great example of that cut.

This is great! We have yet another gene identified and 'easily' workable... insofar as we know it exists and can be genetically linked.

Again, thank you for this work and also for sharing it.

Yep, welcome.

[Gaagii]

Some horses of interest



The sooty is a nice addition




Occasionally get these. As there's a silver back in the pedigree line of a bought 'plume' horse am unsure just a throwback or if 'plume' is a silver variant.

Well I bred three black ac turkmenes to horses with the plume. All foals were bay/brown & no plume.

Still going nowhere with black. One more try with heterogeneous black.

Bought colors to play with:
grullo
cremello
chestnut
'metallic'

[BlackOak2]

...

You have an interesting theory that plume could be a form of silver.
Arabians from the AC don't carry silver. From the ones I sent you, the only non-AC horses in that line were the two that I used to instill a heavy-favoring genetic. One was a flaxen chestnut belgian:



And the other was a Silver Perlino Roan Pangare shetland:



He did not pass on the silver to any of his children:




Rather, the ones I sent to you, came from old-stock, AC arabians that some already had some visual plume. What I mean is, the project I pulled the ones I sent to you from, had a consistent influx of AC arab stock I purchased from the market, many of which had older ID numbers. Their direct offspring and grand-offspring were the ones that showed the plume, in addition to the AC arabs themselves in some cases showing the plume.

Since AC arabs don't have silver, it can't be the silver gene.

However... perhaps we're wrong, maybe AC arabs do contain or can contain a certain type of silver that's different from the others, just like AC prze.

****
Those two red ones of yours appear to be straight flaxen chestnuts, but it's amazing how the flaxen has taken over all of the legs, and how that flaxen has also appears to be mimicking the plume... or is that the plume mimicking the flaxen?
I do see a distinct different between flaxen and plume though, flaxen will color all of the fetlock, ankle and hoof area, whereas the plume will leave the anklet area alone. At least, so far it appears to.

And as for black, silver does color black, but many of the other genes get hidden by it, so this may be another that black overrules.

Thank you for the update! Still extremely interesting.

[Stick]

Is this the same gene? If so, then Caspians carry it.

[Gaagii]

...

You have an interesting theory that plume could be a form of silver.
Arabians from the AC don't carry silver. From the ones I sent you, the only non-AC horses in that line were the two that I used to instill a heavy-favoring genetic. One was a flaxen chestnut belgian:



And the other was a Silver Perlino Roan Pangare shetland:



He did not pass on the silver to any of his children:




Rather, the ones I sent to you, came from old-stock, AC arabians that some already had some visual plume. What I mean is, the project I pulled the ones I sent to you from, had a consistent influx of AC arab stock I purchased from the market, many of which had older ID numbers. Their direct offspring and grand-offspring were the ones that showed the plume, in addition to the AC arabs themselves in some cases showing the plume.

Since AC arabs don't have silver, it can't be the silver gene.

However... perhaps we're wrong, maybe AC arabs do contain or can contain a certain type of silver that's different from the others, just like AC prze.

Ah yes, thanks for the clarification.

The silver (palomino dame, grullo sire) in the 'plume' line actually came from someone else.

The interesting bit is the dame of the 'chestnut' above here:

Came from one of your plume arab mares & the plume (silver background) horse. So there maybe a silver sort of gene hidden in the arabs somewhere.

****
Those two red ones of yours appear to be straight flaxen chestnuts, but it's amazing how the flaxen has taken over all of the legs, and how that flaxen has also appears to be mimicking the plume... or is that the plume mimicking the flaxen?
I do see a distinct different between flaxen and plume though, flaxen will color all of the fetlock, ankle and hoof area, whereas the plume will leave the anklet area alone. At least, so far it appears to.

And as for black, silver does color black, but many of the other genes get hidden by it, so this may be another that black overrules.

Thank you for the update! Still extremely interesting.

See that's what I think - chestnut = flaxen (silver?).

I've bought some actual chestnuts to see what they show.

[BlackOak2]

Is this the same gene? If so, then Caspians carry it.

It does appear to be the same, or at least similar. There are some AC horses that may have it, just from appearance, but it's so difficult to tell when it's so gently expressed.

[BlackOak2]

Ah yes, thanks for the clarification.

The silver (palomino dame, grullo sire) in the 'plume' line actually came from someone else.

The interesting bit is the dame of the 'chestnut' above here:

Came from one of your plume arab mares & the plume (silver background) horse. So there maybe a silver sort of gene hidden in the arabs somewhere....

See that's what I think - chestnut = flaxen (silver?).

I've bought some actual chestnuts to see what they show.

I have been watching those flaxen chestnuts you've been producing (rather was watching them). I don't know whether it's just the progression of the flaxen that's offering a similar progression of the plume or if it's just coincidence.
But I do find it peculiar that as you work toward better plume expression, the flaxen also gets stronger.

I did also make the same preliminary conclusion just like you did, could they be interconnected somehow?

What I can say is that in flaxen lines that have expressed like this, there doesn't appear to be any strong plume influence. So perhaps it goes just one way, if... IF... it's connected at all.

Of course, what we also could be seeing is the plume interacting with flaxen. As in, these are flaxen chestnuts, but they are ALSO showing plume and it's just making them appear this much stronger.

Which begs the questions: the fetlock silvering from plume versus flaxen, is it in fact all from plume and not flaxen? Since this fetlock silvering appears on horses other then chestnuts and since flaxen is not supposed to affect other colors, then the silvering cannot be from flaxen, or, it cannot just be from flaxen.

I am leaning toward the: plume is also apparent on chestnut, it just so happens it's pairing with the flaxen in your lines.

Good thing you picked up some chestnuts to try them out as well.

[Gaagii]

I have been watching those flaxen chestnuts you've been producing (rather was watching them). I don't know whether it's just the progression of the flaxen that's offering a similar progression of the plume or if it's just coincidence.

But I do find it peculiar that as you work toward better plume expression, the flaxen also gets stronger.

I noticed that myself. A few times I went "what" about a flaxen horse showing up in a line here or there.

I did also make the same preliminary conclusion just like you did, could they be interconnected somehow?

What I can say is that in flaxen lines that have expressed like this, there doesn't appear to be any strong plume influence. So perhaps it goes just one way, if... IF... it's connected at all.

Of course, what we also could be seeing is the plume interacting with flaxen. As in, these are flaxen chestnuts, but they are ALSO showing plume and it's just making them appear this much stronger.

See this is the thing. They also seem to make some change in other flaxens.

You identified this guy's sire as a flaxen red dun http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 13#p113313


But if you search flaxen red dun for sale/stud the identified as horses show differently -
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/771128
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/584614

This is him as a foal versus the 2nd identified as flaxen red dun




Either way we have flaxen chestnut & flaxen red dun in this seeming 'plume' line.

Which begs the questions: the fetlock silvering from plume versus flaxen, is it in fact all from plume and not flaxen? Since this fetlock silvering appears on horses other then chestnuts and since flaxen is not supposed to affect other colors, then the silvering cannot be from flaxen, or, it cannot just be from flaxen.

I am leaning toward the: plume is also apparent on chestnut, it just so happens it's pairing with the flaxen in your lines.

Agreed

Good thing you picked up some chestnuts to try them out as well.

, just over a year.
Plume sire x AC chestnut dame

[Silverine]

Don't trust the stud/sale ads to have correct colors. Not everyone knows the genes behind them or has the skills with identifying them (and of course mistakes happen as well). That second horse is not flaxen red dun, but is actually silver bay dun. The silver is causing the lightening of the mane and tail rather than the flaxen gene.

Also a note on no success with black so far:

Both you and BlackOak have noted a possible connection between plume and flaxen. Is it possible that plume is actually flaxen showing on the red hairs of an otherwise black-based coat? What I mean is that bays still have red-colored hair in their manes/tails/fetlocks though they are not very prevalent. Perhaps the plume is flaxen affecting these red hairs. This could explain it having no affect on true blacks, at least as far as has been seen.

As for plume being a variation of silver - this idea I disagree with. If it were a silver variation we would not see any affect from it on chestnuts, but would be able to see it on blacks. Also, the bays that have affects from plume still have dark, near-black areas of their mane/tail/coronets that would, at the very least, become chocolate on a horse affected by silver.

Another theory I've heard (and I apologize if you two have mentioned it, I didn't have time to read everything) is that plume is a variation of pangare. To me, this makes the most sense. Pangare can affect all of the places you've demonstrated to be susceptible to plume. Pangare also will not affect true black horses, but will affect bays, browns, and chestnuts.

Also a good thing to note: the plumes on super old horses (notably the super old buckskin Baladis from the stud lists, the ones with four- or five-digit IDs) were actually just the result of how the renderer used to handle buckskins (and bays to some extent). I tried to work with those guys for a super long time before being informed of that.

[Gaagii]

Don't trust the stud/sale ads to have correct colors. Not everyone knows the genes behind them or has the skills with identifying them (and of course mistakes happen as well). That second horse is not flaxen red dun, but is actually silver bay dun. The silver is causing the lightening of the mane and tail rather than the flaxen gene.

Indeed.

....

Anyway

These are the predominant colors so far.





Plus

&


They're all pretty much bay (or black further generations) based, I believe, except for that palomino all the way back on one line. So the flaxen popping up is interesting.

The pangare crops up every so often.


The theory of red being affected by Silverine is actually an interesting one. If you compare the bays, like mentioned, they've still got their black mane, tail & fetlocks. The flaxens do not.





Blacks

Silverine mentioned that this doesn't show on black & I am gonna agree. I've tried ac black & a bought grullo and the foals are never black.

This one, in fact, comes from one of my better marked plume mares & grullo


This one, a pangare plume mare & grullo. Not associated with dun given his markings?


This one, plume sire & ac black.


I am gonna try, just for argument's sake, a multi generation (homogeneous) black at some point to see what that does. If the foals are still non-black then it doesn't work on black.




Chestnuts

As mentioned earlier bought some chestnuts. The two below come from an ac arab chestnut mare & two different plume sires


baby photo but it'll likely turn out the exact same as half sibling

Different plume x ac chestnut
baby photo, will update. Notice it's chestnut without any plume or flaxen.

I might do a multi generational chestnut to weed out any secondary genes that may be hiding.


Browns

I need to find some good browns.



Secondaries

Decided to add some leopard pattern and see what that does.



This guy is the result of a good plume sire & this mare



There are horses that crop up with sooty and/or progressive darkening. The old below is the most intensive of such coloring
21 years old
21 years old
versus
8 years old



The addition of creme into the coloration

Here's an interesting aspect. This gal's the result of a cream influenced horse (grullo x cream) and the flaxen chestnut linked above


I've put the dame to another plume without the flaxen influence




Anything else you guys can think of?