Leopard Patterns - Information and open discussion

[Silverine]

Again, nothing new, but I wanted to share the gorgeous snowflakes on this mare:

Makes me think of some of those snowflake horses that look more like roaned horses. It also makes me wonder just how heavy that snowflake can get on here.
Very nice outcome.

It is a very interesting expression. It seems like a recessive version of the normal flakes - smaller than normal and more densely packed. In my herd it seems to originate from this mare via this mare brought in from outside the program. I never had them before that.

[BlackOak2]

Makes me think of some of those snowflake horses that look more like roaned horses. It also makes me wonder just how heavy that snowflake can get on here.
Very nice outcome.

It is a very interesting expression. It seems like a recessive version of the normal flakes - smaller than normal and more densely packed. In my herd it seems to originate from this mare via this mare brought in from outside the program. I never had them before that.

It's interesting how that outside line doesn't seem to offer much visible snowflake in her pedigree. A little here, a little there, but not much expression at all. Maybe not very much strong genes for appearing but perhaps heavy on expression. It certainly is interesting to see how these genes pair up.

[Silverine]

It is a very interesting expression. It seems like a recessive version of the normal flakes - smaller than normal and more densely packed. In my herd it seems to originate from this mare via this mare brought in from outside the program. I never had them before that.

It's interesting how that outside line doesn't seem to offer much visible snowflake in her pedigree. A little here, a little there, but not much expression at all. Maybe not very much strong genes for appearing but perhaps heavy on expression. It certainly is interesting to see how these genes pair up.

Yeah, the outside mare especially didn't show anything. But the more it permeated my lines the more it showed up.

[BlackOak2]

Yeah, the outside mare especially didn't show anything. But the more it permeated my lines the more it showed up.

That's why it's so nice and handy to breed to AC horses for pinning down genes. Still haven't found that bay extension gene... but I'm convinced it's in the belgians. And I have a sneaking suspicion it's directly connected to color. Although I had thought before it might have been in them (along with perhaps arabians or turks) I hadn't even thought that some of these genes and perhaps a lot of others, like dappled sooty and maybe other future genes, aren't just rare in certain AC breeds, but directly connected to certain base color genes.

[Silverine]

That's why it's so nice and handy to breed to AC horses for pinning down genes. Still haven't found that bay extension gene... but I'm convinced it's in the belgians. And I have a sneaking suspicion it's directly connected to color. Although I had thought before it might have been in them (along with perhaps arabians or turks) I hadn't even thought that some of these genes and perhaps a lot of others, like dappled sooty and maybe other future genes, aren't just rare in certain AC breeds, but directly connected to certain base color genes.

Just for clarification - do you mean that the genes are tied to base color in that you only find certain genes on certain base colors when adopting from the AC, that they can only exist on certain base colors, that their expression is tied to base color, or some variation of all three?


Also, wanted to show off this new colt. Slowly getting all areas covered on my black leopards. This boy has two of my three "problem" areas (areas that some of my horses have covered but almost never have more than one) - the hindquarters and the full upper right front. He's only missing the front of the upper left.




And I still have not been able to get coverage on the nose of any of my non-reds. I've started pulling in blood from unrelated lines to see what I can pull off but no luck so far.

[Totina]

Just for clarification - do you mean that the genes are tied to base color in that you only find certain genes on certain base colors when adopting from the AC, that they can only exist on certain base colors, that their expression is tied to base color, or some variation of all three?


Also, wanted to show off this new colt. Slowly getting all areas covered on my black leopards. This boy has two of my three "problem" areas (areas that some of my horses have covered but almost never have more than one) - the hindquarters and the full upper right front. He's only missing the front of the upper left.




And I still have not been able to get coverage on the nose of any of my non-reds. I've started pulling in blood from unrelated lines to see what I can pull off but no luck so far.

Very nice coverage on a non-chestnut based horse. Looks similar to this filly I have managed to get:

[Silverine]

(@Totina - They just swapped front legs! )


Lp Sections Illustrated

Or kind of. I had a foal born recently that I feel illustrates fairly well the different "sections" of the Lp gene - the different areas that each bunch of PATN (apparently) codes for.



Using him as a base, I drew lines around the different areas. The outlines are not exact (and as I think we've all seen there is often overlap between the areas) but I think they give a decent idea. The neck area was a little "iffy" on him since he has one big patch there.



And then I numbered the areas. I numbered them in what, for me, has been the order that these areas "fill in." Of course very few of my horses have actually followed that exact progression (and several of the areas usually fill in together) but it gives a good visual of the order in which the Lp "cup" fills up. (Please excuse the double 28s. I had to do some renumbering and forgot to change the area on the flank to 29.)



The section on the flank marked 28, which should be 29, is actually representative of the stripe that is often seen down the front of the near hind leg on Lp horses. I've seen a few horses (all snowcaps if memory serves) that cover this area but the vast majority of horses - red-based ones included - leave this particular spot uncovered.

So what is my point here? I'm not sure. I thought it was interesting. I'd also love to hear everyone else's experience with these "sections" and thought it might be a chance to open up some new discussion. Anyway. I'll stop rambling now.

[Totina]

(@Totina - They just swapped front legs! )


Lp Sections Illustrated

Or kind of. I had a foal born recently that I feel illustrates fairly well the different "sections" of the Lp gene - the different areas that each bunch of PATN (apparently) codes for.



Using him as a base, I drew lines around the different areas. The outlines are not exact (and as I think we've all seen there is often overlap between the areas) but I think they give a decent idea. The neck area was a little "iffy" on him since he has one big patch there.



And then I numbered the areas. I numbered them in what, for me, has been the order that these areas "fill in." Of course very few of my horses have actually followed that exact progression (and several of the areas usually fill in together) but it gives a good visual of the order in which the Lp "cup" fills up. (Please excuse the double 28s. I had to do some renumbering and forgot to change the area on the flank to 29.)



The section on the flank marked 28, which should be 29, is actually representative of the stripe that is often seen down the front of the near hind leg on Lp horses. I've seen a few horses (all snowcaps if memory serves) that cover this area but the vast majority of horses - red-based ones included - leave this particular spot uncovered.

So what is my point here? I'm not sure. I thought it was interesting. I'd also love to hear everyone else's experience with these "sections" and thought it might be a chance to open up some new discussion. Anyway. I'll stop rambling now.

I have had similar thoughts about doing a visual chart of the different areas that the pattern genes cover. It seems like I don't have to do it now since you have done very good illustration of the sections already.
I am currently using some of my double LP mares and breeding them to AC stallions in order to find out where the last pieces of pattern could be hiding (the frontside of the back leg, front-/underside of neck/head etc.)

[Silverine]

I have had similar thoughts about doing a visual chart of the different areas that the pattern genes cover. It seems like I don't have to do it now since you have done very good illustration of the sections already.
I am currently using some of my double LP mares and breeding them to AC stallions in order to find out where the last pieces of pattern could be hiding (the frontside of the back leg, front-/underside of neck/head etc.)

Thank you! Feel free to use one or both of them anywhere you'd like.

I would love to know what sort of results your project yields. I'm thinking of doing a similar-yet-different one with a double-LP stud once I get the full coverage that I want - both front legs, hindquarters, and as much face white as I can. (I find it easier to work with studs simply because I can freeze them and not worry about losing them whereas the mares age out.)

[BlackOak2]

I like the 'cut' of your 'jib'. Well... not a jib, but that's what I thought when I read your breakdown. Yes, I think I agree almost fully with your pattern cups. Except, I think number two (hips) and 29 (flank) are just a little off. I actually think that part 29 stretches a bit further upward and deeper into 2. Also 6 (stomach), there is something different with that one, either split into two sections (with that fewspot patch singled out), or rather split into three, front of ribs, back of ribs and rear stomach area. I've had separately all three pop up. I say that because of the progression I've been getting here... okay, so perhaps these aren't the best examples... I rehomed all the good examples because they don't compare to their parents, who knew I'd have use of them now? Ha!
Front Ribs:


Rear Ribs:






This one's a forward positioned rear ribs, so I suppose this would be a front rib area missing:


Rear Stomach:


Otherwise, that's the pattern collection I get also.

And for that gene clarification: I mean that certain genes from the AC may only appear on certain base gene colors and not that they are directly tied to certain base colors and will ever only appear on them. For these agouti extensions, my theory is that only black belgians from the AC carry this. Commonality's grandsire was an Ee black belgian. I tried two other black belgians (both Ee, but I didn't know that when I bought them) but they don't seem to be panning out (I still have some of their grand and great grand children in trial breedings). I recently nabbed a black female belgian and am currently trying her. So yes, the extension gene may be rare and made so perhaps because of the link to the black in belgians and not because that they only occur in certain belgians. If you consider that maybe only 50% of the gene pops up in only black belgians... but the black AC belgian is rare to begin with.

So anyway, that's my theory.