Leopard Patterns - Information and open discussion

[Silverine]

I'm going to guess that it is. Simply because it would be awesome to get a fewspot with very few actual spots. XD

[BlackOak2]

It seems like there are many different areas where these "minus pattern" can occur. I wonder if it is connected to genetics, similar to spot density/white spread, and if it i possible to get a horse with no (or almost no) spots at all.

hehe!
ALL white...
It would offer new definition to our pseudo-whites on the game right now! Hah!



I am hoping to get that minus area expanded; I think it will help my goal pattern if I'm starting with a clearer canvas.
I would assume that it is connected to genetics. It's just the opposite of becoming denser. We can get averaging density from a less dense and a more dense stallion and mare; if we consider this, then having a minimally spotted coat shouldn't be outside of our reach.
'Shouldn't' being the operative word.

[Silverine]

I have a fun challenge for anyone that's interested in undertaking it. Find the source of this horse's large spots. I can't for the life of me figure out where they came from.

[BlackOak2]

I have a fun challenge for anyone that's interested in undertaking it. Find the source of this horse's large spots. I can't for the life of me figure out where they came from.

That is a LONG pedigree. I think there's a little on both sides, I see large-like medium spots popping up all over the further I go back. You happened to finally get them all in line.
These three in particular look like they may be carrying some of those traits:






That's as far back as I went. If you look at all three of those ancestors, they each have a couple spots that when they run together, the form a grand-flow-over spot.

[BlackOak2]

I just looked again at that horse, Classic Starscape for a color! It made me laugh. That's Great!
He is a nice looking horse.

[Silverine]

I just looked again at that horse, Classic Starscape for a color! It made me laugh. That's Great!
He is a nice looking horse.

Yeah, he's from my Starscape Project. XD

I thought a horse had to have a different gene for big spots. Is it more of a progression, kind of like being tall? The more genes for being tall, the taller you are, the more genes for big spots the bigger the spots, rather than just one gene for big, another for medium, and another for small?

[BlackOak2]

I just looked again at that horse, Classic Starscape for a color! It made me laugh. That's Great!
He is a nice looking horse.

Yeah, he's from my Starscape Project. XD

I thought a horse had to have a different gene for big spots. Is it more of a progression, kind of like being tall? The more genes for being tall, the taller you are, the more genes for big spots the bigger the spots, rather than just one gene for big, another for medium, and another for small?

I'm not sure. I think we assumed (or I at least did): 2 genes with 4 alleles and 2 alleles: that the gene with the 4 alleles was for each size. Normal, Medium, Large and extra small. They may not work like that. What we do know is that there is a little bit of difference between the spots in each 'size'. But is that because the genes are accumulating differently? Or is that because for reality sake, admin offered perhaps a hundred different spots to be chosen from for each spot size, so they don't all look exactly alike?

I assumed that the 4 allele gene was the different size gene, because we do only have 4 separate sizes. But perhaps it's the 2 allele gene that determines what size.
I also have a theory in my notes I haven't looked at recently:
If: "Sp2 controls size, as simple on/off switches with dominant/recessive at work; one allele will offer one size, two offers the second size, three offers the third size and four offers the fourth size. I do not know which is recessive to which, but I assume that normal size is dominant and that this only comes into play when there is a double Sp1."
But I haven't really been able to lay this out. However, perhaps this might explain how we could have more than two or three spots at the same time.
(I named them Sp1, for the 2 allele gene, and Sp2 for the 4 allele gene) and under the assumption that Sp1 is what enabled multiple size spot ability.

[BlackOak2]

Yeah, he's from my Starscape Project. XD

I thought a horse had to have a different gene for big spots. Is it more of a progression, kind of like being tall? The more genes for being tall, the taller you are, the more genes for big spots the bigger the spots, rather than just one gene for big, another for medium, and another for small?

I'm not sure. I think we assumed (or I at least did): 2 genes with 4 alleles and 2 alleles: that the gene with the 4 alleles was for each size. Normal, Medium, Large and extra small. They may not work like that. What we do know is that there is a little bit of difference between the spots in each 'size'. But is that because the genes are accumulating differently? Or is that because for reality sake, admin offered perhaps a hundred different spots to be chosen from for each spot size, so they don't all look exactly alike?

I assumed that the 4 allele gene was the different size gene, because we do only have 4 separate sizes. But perhaps it's the 2 allele gene that determines what size.
I also have a theory in my notes I haven't looked at recently:
If: "Sp2 controls size, as simple on/off switches with dominant/recessive at work; one allele will offer one size, two offers the second size, three offers the third size and four offers the fourth size. I do not know which is recessive to which, but I assume that normal size is dominant and that this only comes into play when there is a double Sp1."
But I haven't really been able to lay this out. However, perhaps this might explain how we could have more than two or three spots at the same time.
(I named them Sp1, for the 2 allele gene, and Sp2 for the 4 allele gene) and under the assumption that Sp1 is what enabled multiple size spot ability.

Now that I go back and reread it a couple times, I don't like this anymore.
I want to say that perhaps it's similar.

Consider this, perhaps writing it down will help me understand it too.

Let's say each one of these alleles carries a set number.
allele a has a number of 5
allele b has a number of 7
allele c has a number of 13
allele d has a number of 16

So assuming we can have all of these alleles. They add up to different numbers and by using this pattern, we can have more options? Maybe.

Allele count of 5 (the lowest), offers us straight normal spots.
allele count of 6 to 12 offers us medium size (the next most often seen)
13 to 18 offers us huge
19 and 20 offers us mini
21 through 29 offers us huge

And this count continues upward, increasing the types of spot sizes.

Well... I like this type of theory a little better now that I've been breeding these complexes.

[Silverine]

This colt seems to have some minus pattern on him.

[Totina]

Through random experimentation with genes from AC horses I have found a source for a recessive gene that causes white on the upper part of the right front leg (for single LP expression).

The dam to the filly (the filly is linked below) is carrying two copies of a recessive gene for white in that area, which makes that area white but would not be visible if the filly did not inherit a similar gene from the sire.
The sire was produced with an AC turkmene stallion and a mare from my herd from before I introduced the gene that makes the upper right front leg white with only a single LP expression (I have only had the gene for double LP expression but not single LP visibility).
My conclusion is that turkmenes are hiding at least a recessive variation of the gene for white on the upper right front leg (single LP expression).