Closed Thread.

[BlackOak2]

i have some really nice studs if ou would like to see them in the project barn

I'm also making a note of these three studs owned by the quoted player that interested me enough, Royale, I think you should look at the evals more closely. Specifically because of the greens over golds with still a very high HGP and the remaining positive, non-colored comments.

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1305248
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1187105
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1299490

[Royale Ranch]

Thankyou Avrielle. those are certainly some pretty impressive stats!
your farm is very interesting to look through as well
if it is okay to ask, what technique did you use to increase the stamina within your arabian lines?
yes, i'm torn, 'genetically modifying' these horses to reach my end goal... it kind of feels wrong to do so, but its not stopping me at the moment!

Originally I only bred Arabians for high HGP, but then I realized if I wanted a real Endurance competition monster that I would need to start breeding for conformation. So at first I didn't crossbreed, I simply looked through the Arabians available for stud (yes all 100 something pages and before the find only studs with energy option was available >.<) and looked for ones close to 50. This eventually brought me to having Arabians that were 50+, but only would max out around 55 and 57 if I was lucky. I started to look at the actual details in the conformation report and noticed my issue was in face length, which holds a lot of points in Stamina.

As it turns out my Paint line that I had been breeding only for color and because I used them to create my Pintabians, had that long face I was looking for, but at the same time they had the deep flank as well so I didn't have to compromise on fixing that area of conformation in my Arabians later. I slowly bred my Paints into my Arabians, mostly keeping track of which foals kept the longer faces without sacrificing too much to other areas of their conformation and their HGP. It wasn't quite as efficient as the method as I'm using now, and it was lot more work to record each area of their conformation, but the results were pretty quick and within a week or two I came by my first 67 Stamina Arabian.

nice. i must say that my first steps were very simular - looking through the stud market... even with the energy filter there are so many to go through, and sort of discouraging! very interesting about the paints, thanks for sharing. - thanks for also reminding me to take note of their physical appearance... something i often to forget to do!

Now to current day and the line I'm working on now: If you looked through my farm then you've noticed that I have an Arabian mare one and Arabian mare two pasture, I also have an Arabian side pasture 1 and 2. This began when I started increasing their speed conformation. Right before I quit breeding Paints I started to cross them with TBs and Deliboz. I still had longer faced deep flanked Paints, but this led me to having downhill croups as well which was the last area of speed my Arabians were missing very badly, which is what you can see in the 67 Stamina Arabian I put up for stud.

So I crossed the two lines, but instead of instantly breeding back to purebred Arabian I kept these lines mostly separate. So those side pastures mostly consisted of Arabian Paint crosses up until the last couple weeks. Whenever I felt like I had a good enough selection of mares with proper conformations, I would find the Arabian stud with the most downhill croup (bare in mind the highest of a group of stallions with a bunch of uphill croups) and breed him to the side pasture group. Keeping the foals that had the best results between the crossing and rehoming the ones that didn't. Then I kept the lines separate again for a long time and kept repeating this process and ever so slowly creeping them up back to purebred or close to purebred. Keep in mind that this has actually taken a bit over a month. I also kept one stud in particular with close enough conformations just in case the side pasture started to lose the ideal Stamina and Speed conformations I was looking for. http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1615979

It's a really long process, but it's fairly safe and kept me from losing too much conformation or HGP wise, since my Paints were close in HGP, but not as high as my Arabians. So the crossing was slow and not overbearing. Also freezing the age of any studs along the way that could be used later to fix conformation mishaps that occasionally come up. However, my rehome rate is extremely high. I generally keep the best two studs of a generation and then breed them to two groups of 6 mares. I throw all the colts into my Stallion pasture and then all the fillies into the filly holding pens. After I go through two rounds of breeding I compare the resulting foals and either keep the ones that meet the standard or rehome the ones that don't meet the standard I'm looking for and also replace the mares that no longer meet the standard of what the new generation has come to. At this point my rehome rate can be as high as 90% of the foals being rehomed, unless I'm getting close to losing some of my herd to old age.

Kind of a bit of a read, sorry about that lol. It's a lot of work and paying attention to small details when it comes to conformation breeding. Breeding for high HGP is fairly simple and fast by comparison and you have a lot less time and progress lost due to being inattentive. I'm sure I don't have the best way of going about breeding for conformation and I'm sure I'm missing some ways of better insuring that I get the results I'm looking for and in faster time, but I enjoy the learning process anyways.

So far after a couple months it has resulted in this guy http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1663732. But even he isn't the final product of what I'm going for. Just one wonderful milestone for me.

very very interesting thanks.. appreciate the time you spent typing it all out! i think the biggest issue i have right now is going arround in circles...not breeding out the old mares when necessacary, or breeding with the same stud too much.. you possibly already seen that anyway....

oh and naturally - so very sorry everyone for taking absolutely ages to respond... couldnt believe the amount of experienced people on this thread helping!

[Royale Ranch]

This is why I like the forums, things get saved to be over-read when we can sit down and take the time to look through them carefully.
I suspect this will be a long post. And also, some of what I'll say will likely be repetition, but repetition is a key learning tool. Feel free to tell me when you get tired of hearing certain points.

laughs - sure thing

This is about the third or forth time that ive written out a response for this post... but each time something else has come up and of course... it wasnt saved....
hence, im afraid that this version will be considerably sorter than my original - but guessing that information is sort of irrelevant now...
BlackOak, before i start - thanks a million for this!
now, regarding the colts: already, as you have pointed out, colts certainly are not my priority right at the moment, so the only reason for keeping them is if they are amazing
My opinion was the same for the first and second colt, and thanks so much for your advice- and the depth! that you went into with the third colt... i will definitely be trying this out...

Isn't that the way it goes... I had that problem in chat when at first I couldn't figure out how to whisper! Hah! But it's no big deal, the gist of what you'll write, regardless of how many times we're forced to write it (really aggravating for me, I HATE rewriting stuff, strong words but it's true, for me at least) will always come through. That's true for me as well. Often times, I'll copy and paste into word, just in case of power outage or some other nondescript annoying situation...

The community is here to help. If it wasn't me, it would've been another player.

lol i understand fully with the above paragraph...good idea about word.. think i will take it up....

Not everybody keeps colts for stud purposes. I'm one of the (I'm suspecting) relatively few who keeps closed bloodlines, so a good stud is just as important as a good mare being produced from my own bloodlines. This may change in the future when we can brood out our mares without having to transfer them to another farm. If closed bloodlines aren't a problem, then there are plenty of quality studs that could fit almost every need available on market. That being said, if your lines produce a great colt, one shouldn't immediately cull it because of it's sex. I think you got that point already though.

this system of answering per paragraph could get quite confusing but either way.... honestly look up to all players that keep 'exclusive' bloodlines... certainly a goal of mine one day, eventually.... thanks for pointing that up though, its a good reminder.

I want to ensure that my descriptions and reasons why each foal would be keep or cull is fully understood. Plus, I don't want to make the decisions for you, after all it's your breeding project and not mine, so you should have the final say, always. Then at the same time, you'll get some further insight into how other successful breeding projects progressed (at this moment, I must thank Avrielle for such an in-depth description of their success of their project as well). Now that you already understood the breeding on the game, what you appeared to need the most, is some guidance to fine-tune your own, personal breeding theory. Each one of us will have their own theory that works best for them. In fact, my two farms and each one of my projects actually have separate theories that I use; it all comes down to what I'm breeding toward. But each of my fine-tuned theories share very similar basics. That's what I'm imparting to you, those shared basics. This way, any project you tackle in the future, you'll always know where to start.

thanks, BlackOak, and Avrielle too. both of you have been an enormous help, and i honestly owe you both for how far i have got so far....

(your responses from the foal responses I gave)

I don't want to just skip this and think I ignored your responses or forgot them. Not that there is much to add.
It is important that both parents stats reflect in the foals stats. They can tell you many things, such as what types of genes the parents carry, both good and bad, how these genes marry together (the foals outcome stats), and what might need to be avoided (stats that reflect strong conformation but poor genes). However, just because a foal has a very poor outcome from both of it's parents, doesn't necessarily mean that the foal is a failure. Like we've been discussing, certain conf scores and certain report comments can reflect what the foal carries, therefore having a 'weaker' foal outcome from both parents may be a better outcome for your herd, if said foal appears to have a stronger gene compilation than either parent.
For some reason, I think you need a little example. Though I don't have an actual example, I can give you a functional one:
Thus we have parents with report comments of stamina:
Your stallion could run all day and not be tired!
Your mare has a lot of endurance.

With conf scores of (let's say):
54 for stud
52 for mare

But the foal comes out:
This fillies endurance is higher than average.
With a conf score of:
38

Even though this filly appears to be much less than either parent, she could in fact be much a better gene-carrier. She shares a green comment with both parents, but has a weaker conf score, which could very well mean that the genes she inherited from both parents were strictly stamina genes and not stamina and conformation genes. Though she looks rather sickly on paper, the genes she'll pass on to her offspring are arguably stronger than the genes she received from either parent separately.

I don't know how possible my example is, it is after all, just an example.

That being said, comparing stats to the parents does come into heavy play and should be considered when looking to replace a breeding horse, either a stud or a mare. So, what should be considered for replacements? Such things as matching stats for either could be considered a replacement, but that will only offer you a keeping average of your bloodlines, not necessarily an improvement. You should consider never replacing a breeding horse with an offspring that has breeding report comments below what you already have. For instance, never replace an average comment with a negative comment (that's pretty much something you never want to do, unless your aim is the low GP project). However, considering all of the report comments in unison can be considered over any single report comment. For instance, you went from a non-colored good speed comment to a gold speed comment, but went from a gold movement comment down to a green movement comment. In this case, this offspring could still be considered a strong replacement breeding horse. These replacement offspring should always be considered for every foal. Once an adequate replacement is found, every successful foal from that breeding pair is icing on the cake. I've had a couple breeding matches that have thrown successive, beautiful replacement-type foals. So what's the grading value of foals? Cull would be a E rank foal, those that fail both parents. Cull would also be a D rank foal, those that fail one of two parents. C rank foals would be those that match but don't improve upon either parent (the 'average' student). B rank foals are successful foals that improve upon either parent or most often, improve upon different stats of both parents. A rank foals are foals that equal or improve upon the stats of both parents. Breeding replacement foals must at least equal A-rank on ONE parent (they'd be considered B rank foals, really). But I always strive for A rank replacement foals, foals that equal or improve upon the stats of both parents in unison.
You can expect every match to throw a C rank foal. But sometimes the combination doesn't mix well and it'll give you a couple cull foals. That doesn't guarantee that the pair is a bad mix, it could just mean that they do have weaker genes and that particular foal just got the worst from both for that breeding. However, this will offer insight into just how bad the genes both parents could be carrying. In essence, you'll learn the lowest ends of the genes your breeders carry, so even these cull foals have a use.

BlackOak, your example makes perfect sense, and certainly clears my thinking..... but as for your ranking system, its gold! i love your way of explaing, and how you have put that is extremely useful...!! i know it doesnt seem much to say after all you have just written, but thankyou.

and there you go, answering one of my unasked questions.. a shocking habit that i have with breeding is that i use the same mares over and over until they die, then all i end up with is a million middle aged horses - newborns all with similar, if not poorer stats than their mares! so, my take from this is to have a certain number of carefully chosen mares, and once a better foal is recieved, replace them?

I'm pulling this one out specifically, although I think you answered your own question later in this topic, I want to ensure you understand it thoroughly since you did ask the question.

Yes, carefully choose your breeding mares for your breeding project. A mare that fits one project won't necessarily fit another. This you already know. But if a stud must be carefully chosen, the mare must be much more selectively looked over, because a stud can have thousands of foals in his lifetime, but a mare is very restricted, she may have as little as 13 foals, or possibly less (considering how long she carries, if she's bred on her fourth birthday and if she dies the moment she has her foal after she turns 17 years). So the mare and her successor must be acceptable, there shouldn't be compromise like there can be with studs.
However, with that said, if the mare immediately throws a successor on her first couple foals, she doesn't need to be immediately replaced. Maybe her genes are just that good, or the pairing that great. Having a couple that exceed 'A rank' may be a better option, depending on what they carry and if those genes are important to you. COI can have an impact on this, so can room on your farm and overuse of stud...
However, after answering your question, there is one exception I have to share to you. Foundation stock (easy because the arabian can be purchased as an AC stock horse) mares and even studs can be used and 'made-into' what you need for your breeding project. It takes longer to take a base like this and transform it into usable stock for your project, but there are a lot of good that this can have on your project. First and foremost is the no COI it injects, secondly (which in my opinion is just as important), is the clean genes it offers. If you're working with AC stock, they're very limited to what genes they can offer. Blooded stock can have AC stock genes mixed in at any time at any place in their ancestors and can pop up if mixed with the 'wrong' genes anywhere down the line ('suddenly bunny-ears' comes to mind, which in some reports are hazardous to breed back out).

that helps a whole lot, thankyou. previously ive steered away from the AC horses from their low stats, but you have certainly convinced me to give it a shot, thankyou. no doubt will also help with the body appearance as well.

woah. okay, showing up my ignorance, here, i honestly thought that this was a good - if not great - foal..... i liked her especially becuase of her high ranking stamina Breeding comment, without even havin the gold - so i was thinking that she has a lot of potential to go higher. which is more important, the color of the breeding report comment or the 'ranking/positivity' of the breeding report comment? now im just assuming that his conformation of 49 stamina pulled the comment up?

I also want to pull this one specifically out.
Again, I think you answer your own question later, but I want to emphasis it anyway.
I think that the conf score is what pulled this comment up. My point for suggesting to cull this filly is because Ladies Man offered you much better, much more often than this filly shows. Which means if you scale all of his foals on a bell scale, she would fall at the far left (the worst of the worst). She may still pull (in that classroom) A grades, but she carries perhaps the worst genes that Ladies Man has to offer, at least in stamina. Which means (in the real world), she would be a good competitive mare, but wouldn't offer better foals than Ladies Man without being paired with a better stud than Ladies Man. When paired with this mare, another full-sibling foal offered a much better offspring, it means that this pairing can do much better than this foal. This is the reasons that I suggested she was a cull foal.
As for the direct question: 'which is more important?... color or positivity'. I would say that it depends on some other factors, including your breeding project and also on the stats of the parents. Dropping a single grade for a comment isn't a big deal (gold to green, green to positive, positive to neutral)... As long as the other parent shows the drop as well. Both parents show green of the same comment, then that comment dropping to positive, no-color, is a problem unless both parents have green comments and really high conf scores and the foal has a positive, no-color comment with a really low conf score (in this case, it's not a big problem, but might be a success and not a failure).
Likewise, if one of the parents is green and the other gold, then the foal could still be acceptable of it comes out with a green. However, without the above exception, a positive, no-color comment is a failure. In my book, the strong genes in this case have not been passed on, rather the weakest genes have been passed on.

again, thanks. that helps... a lot.
***********

Don't forget, that the BR posts comment is how it appears to come out. Some of those comments overlap with one another, for instance, 'This stallion/mare has great stamina.' may actually share the same non-conformation scores (for HGP) that
Your stallion/mare could run all day and not be tired!
Your stallion/mare has a lot of endurance.
One thing this stallion/mare isn't lacking is stamina!
This stallion's/mare's endurance is higher than average.
All of these do. What I mean and the way that these non-conformation scores are worked out is this:
Example Only
If Stamina can have a score between 0-10 (0 being weakest)
This comment: This stallion/mare has great stamina. may be used for points between 5-8.
This comment: Your stallion/mare could run all day and not be tired! may be used for points 7-9
This comment: This stallion's/mare's endurance is higher than average. may be used for points 5-6
This comment: Your stallion/mare has a lot of endurance. may be used for points 5-8.
So we were warned by Larisar that many of these comments across the breeders report share and overlap many of the same scores of each individual stat. This is to ensure the highest possibility for nobody to map out the comments scores, therefore keeping the breeding evenly 'guess-work' in areas that it should remain a bit unknown.
So choosing one comment over another is left for the breeder and their particular experience, needs and desires.

The BR post is laid out the way the comments most appear to lean toward. However, it as a very good basic map to rely on, as long as we remember to take our salt with it.

all i can seem to reply with is 'thanks' to all of this, blackoak. very interesting mapping point you pick out there, very useful.

and again, as mentioned above, thanks to your help BlackOak, (correct me if im wrong) - a positive, especially a colored BR comment with a low score has the most potential. a high score, and a BR comment neutral = not good

sorry - im kind of rambling now i think...

was just looking up the balance for speed in throughbreds... am im blown away from the below horse:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1512511
with the second highest ranking BR comment for speed, and a conf score of 63...

i think i just answered my own question


but when building up the score, im thinking that the higher color/(in comparison to the higher comment with lower color), with a lower score is better?
thats very likely very confusing sorry....

I agree, and have been using this theory: 'a positive, especially a colored BR comment with a low score has the most potential' for myself and have experienced a lot of success with it. Even without an upgraded account and not reading any of my own breeding stock conf scores, just be reading the HGP score and the breeding report, offers me just enough insight to continue with this theory. HGP is the 'numbered' score of the Breeders Report; the Breeders Report takes both the genes and the conf scores into the equation. The Conformation Score is only how the horse is built and not the genes of the horse.

'a high score, and a BR comment neutral = not good ' This is only handy if you choose to breed only for conformation. But this limits you to how high a conf score you can get, because it's limited to the genes the horse has, however, a bit of luck comes into play, because the highest conf scores will be uplifted by not just conformation but also by genes. If the bloodlines aren't closed, then breeding out to high scores will naturally lift both genes and conformation, however, having strong genes will naturally open the ability to have a much higher conf score, once fine-tuning begins.

That is a nice thoroughbred. Speed is decent, very good. I like him better for his temp, agility and even balance genes. Great, strong comments but considerably low conf scores. He has even proven himself by breaking a record. This is the type of genes that we're striving for. Even though this colt has a 61,000 HGP, considerably lower from the top horses at 70 plus HGP, he has broken a record that those other horses have not. This is a good example of building upon good genes to open up higher conf scores can offer. Once good genes are in the blood, fine-tuning for conformation allows the horse to compete at optimum levels. Plus I like the fact that his predecessors weren't competed, so his competitive bloodline is relatively unknown.

Higher color with lower score is 'greater/better' than higher comment with a lower score. If only because we don't know exactly where each comment precisely falls. However, if you experience having more success with better foals being thrown with one comment over another comment, by all means use the 'lower' comment. You may in fact, have it right.

***************
Now for the next set of foals you had drop.

next bach of foals have arrived:

main stud:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1615317

colts:

Fillies:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1668217
With a little training, she'll grow into quite a strong filly. Your filly is about as fast as average. Wow, you'd be making a mistake not to compete in endurance events with this filly! Boy that filly moves well, she should do pretty well for you. This filly is as regular as clockwork. This filly could do ballet she has such perfect balance! Appears to be a very agile filly, should do good for you. Bloody filly is smart! Too smart!
Gold: Stamina Tempo Balance Intelligence
GP: 59
Speed 25
Strength 22
Stamina 61
Intelligence Conformation does not affect Intelligence
Balance 38
Movement 50
Agility 27
Tempo 33
opinion: as can be expected using this stud, the genes are actually quite low, but conformation high. However, she has kept the gold color, and seems - in my opinion at least, have a decent BR comment. she has kept the speed consistent, but strength has dropped. balance is fair, movement good, agility has unfortunately dropped. tempo is lower than her mares, but that can be expected as the studs tempo is quite low. the only BR color that has dropped is her agility... personally, i think she is a keeper.

I agree with your comments for her, except to say you verbally have it backwards 'the genes are actually quite low, but conformation high', (unless you're talking about stamina). The genes on her other than movement and stamina appear quite good, with much less conformation aiding in the report comments. That said, your outcome is still correct. I don't like the movement stat at all, and tempo is... not ... perfect, but she would be acceptable in my herd as well.

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1668221
This filly seems as strong as average. Your filly is quick on her hooves. This filly has an extraordinary amount of endurance! That's one fine mover. When it comes to tempo, your filly is pretty average. I haven't seen this filly trip once. This filly is very spry! Your filly is as bright as an honor student.
Gold: stamina, intelligence
GP: 58
Speed 27
Strength 26
Stamina 61
Intelligence Conformation does not affect Intelligence
Balance 34
Movement 55
Agility 26
Tempo 36
opinion: as can be expected, this filly has carried across intelligence, and inherited the conf scores (=comment and color) of stamina from the stallion.her speed is weak, but good in comparison to her parents, same applies for strength. movement i think i great, but agility and balance is horrid. i dont think i like her enough...

I agree with your opinion, except I'm not excited about that movement conf score being that high when the comment isn't even colored, to me this means that ALL of her breeding report movement comment is based on conf score (all being subjective as there are genes involved, in this case I mean the genes are about as weak as possible).
She is a win over her mother, but still a failure overall. I would expect a better foal from this match. I agree she is a cull foal.

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1668220
instant rehome.

I agree, without question.

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1668208
Not all horses can be strong. Unfortunately, your filly is one of those. Well, her natural speed is good. Might want to consider racing this one. This one can keep going forever! Doesn't even break a sweat. Your filly moves like the rest of them. This filly is as regular as clockwork. This filly could do ballet she has such perfect balance! Appears to be a very agile filly, should do good for you. If this filly were in school, she would get straight As!
gold: Stamina Tempo Balance Intelligence
Speed 34
Strength 19
Stamina 51
Intelligence Conformation does not affect Intelligence
Balance 41
Movement 43
Agility 34
Tempo 29
GP: 57
as far as the breeding report goes, shes not too bad, increasing the strength of stamina of the mare but has dropped a little in agility. she has, thankfully, carried on a little of her speed from the mare (the studs speed is very low) strength is horrible.
balance, movement and tempo arent good, but arent horrid either. agility bad, but both parents arent great so understandable. perhaps keep he, but only use strong stallions. cull if become overpopulated

I have mixed feelings on her, just like you do. In this case, I look into what other foals this mare has produced, but considering this is her first 'average-keeper', I would hold on to her as well, just like you considered. As soon as she produced a better foal, from this stud or another, I'd rehome this filly. I suspect she will throw a better filly, when matched with an appropriate stud; she does have enough going for her (gold comments), that I think she's capable of giving you better foals.

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1668212
I wouldn't get your hopes up about this one, she's rather weak. Well, her natural speed is good. Might want to consider racing this one. This filly has great stamina. This filly is very cautious and gracious when she moves. Your filly keeps time well. This is one balanced horse! This filly isn't very agile nor is she stiff. Your filly is sharp as a tack.
Stamina (Tempo) (Balance) Intelligence
GP: 58
Speed 18
Strength 30
Stamina 61
Intelligence Conformation does not affect Intelligence
Balance 39
Movement 47
Agility 27
Tempo 29
her BR report is improved from the mares, but dropped from what the stud was in tempo and balance (which the mare did not have) but agility didnt get color, dispite being a postive report. Speed is shocking, but strength is surprisingly good at 30. balance is well, balnced, movement is good. agiligy conf isnt good, but genes i think have boosted. tempo average. i personally think keep her - but i wouldnt know

Again, I agree with you on your comments. One must at least expect an averaging out between the two parent reports, anything leaning toward the better stat of whichever parent is a win. Although her speed comment isn't colored, her speed score is almost dropped out of notice (at 18)... She may have inherited the best speed genes that either parent carried, as best as they could mix-it-up anyway.
She's not great, but she's far from horrible and the best point is, except for strength, she has improved upon her mother. She would be a mare replacement filly and I would consider breeding her to either a gene-stabilizing stud or to super-studs.
This is what happens when we use perhaps 'sub-par' stock into our bloodlines, however, we can improve and make good use of even 'sub-par' stock, especially when we've already put a lot of work into them. We get attached to some of them, even if they look UGLY!

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1668219
I wouldn't get your hopes up about this one, she's rather weak. Your filly is about as fast as average. Your filly seems to have a good amount of stamina. Your filly moves like the rest of them. Who needs a watch when you've got this filly, she's got great tempo. Nice filly! Really knows how to keep herself balanced. I've never seen such an agile horse! Your filly is sharp as a tack.
Tempo Balance (Agility) Intelligence
Horse Genetic Potential: 60,067
Speed 18
Strength 27
Stamina 49
Intelligence Conformation does not affect Intelligence
Balance 49
Movement 45
Agility 33
Tempo 34

i'm torn with this one - i think its a rehome... her mother didnt have any color/decent stat, but even with the sires high stamina, she didnt inherit it - and considering its mostly conform, not genes, i dont think she is worth keeping?

still more to be added... but i have to go and dont want to risk loosing what ive written!

She does look alright on paper, doesn't she? I would have expected a colored stamina, and with her mother's positive, non-colored stamina comment, I would have expected a green. She is a great improvement over her mother, at least on paper (HGP) but appears to pull much of her comments from her conf scores and not from genes. Although she's a nice 'paper' outcome, I agree with your first thought, she's a cull filly. She would be a conformation horse and not a gene horse, therefore she is limiting the upper end of her conf scores for her foals. If you were at the far end of your project and was at that time 'fine-tuning' your herd, she might be worth keeping to open up those conformation scores, however, if born from that herd at that time, I suspect her conf scores to be much higher across the board (with the exception of speed and strength).

This stud you used is alright. Not great, not bad, when paired with your horses. His strengths appear to be Conf in Movement (very big), part in stamina, part in balance. His weak areas are speed (although he appears to have some okay genes in this area), Big weakness in strength (probably in both conf and in genes, but that's no surprise). He does appear to have decent, quality genes in stamina and balance, as well as alright averaging capability for the genes related to tempo and agility.
I would consider him as a good arabian stud, and I think he'll give you the conformation you lack in stamina. However, as for genes, I would use him only for the best mares in your herd to increase their conformation for that stamina trait, solely. I think he'll end up pulling down some of the genes you're trying to keep steady in movement and strength and speed.

So, really long! Hah!

Hope you enjoyed!

that was amazing! your insight has really helped - a lot! i feel a lot more confortable now making decisions, and am extremely grateful for your detailed explainations...!!! who knew there could be so much going on behind the scenes, and that HWO breeding could be so complex? lol, thanks, and i enjoyed the humor too, made me smile like a dork at my screen lol!

thanks,
Royale

[Royale Ranch]

Very interesting read and certainly a lot more work and thought put into each and every new foal than I put in. Makes me feel kind of lazy lol.

As for the stud I am letting Royale use, he really isn't that great HGP or comments wise. He is mostly a conformation horse meant to quickly boost the Stamina conformation in horses and to remain alive just in case Stamina conformation needs some bad fixing later on down the road. He is a good 50+ generations removed from my current Arabian line.

I'm not sure if Royale's overall goal is to breed a perfect Endurance competitor, or simply to have high stamina conformation for the sake of it or for other competitions, but unfortunately that is the highest stamina conformation horse that I can offer to help at the moment >.<. Otherwise my current Arabians average more around 58-62 stamina so that they can average 40+ speed conformation.

my ultimate goal was to breed an all-rounder horse, but obviously that isnt ideal in any breed - and its sort of impossible to get the same horse a record in speed and in log pull at the same time... you get the picture...
but yes, right now, my goal is to breed horses for endurance, - hopefully - to one day break a record...

[Royale Ranch]

ping!

ping!

ping!

thanks so much for all your interest, and sorry for taking so long getting back to you all when you have clearly put so much effort in... its extremely late where i am tonight... so hopefully will get some time tomorrow to be back on HWO, both to go over the rest of the foals from the previous studs, go through the suggested studs from BlackOak and LCameron - thanks; and perhaps look into purchasing a couple of AC arabain mares...?

Royale.

[BlackOak2]

...

You appear to be well on your way to making your project a success!

You're correct, there is a LOT on the breeding aspect of this game. But there is just as much if you were to focus on just competing the horses... or one of the other focuses. But in my opinion, that's the draw of this game, it's involved and you can choose to make your niche where-ever and as deeply or as shallowly as you want.

You don't need to pull out each separate paragraph and comment on each one, I do that to make it easy to follow and so that when you go back to re-read them, you can jump right to the ones you need to without having to search. I don't mind at all if you do that as well, if you have something to say. If you do not, you needed do so. Entirely up to you.

Like I said before, forums are really nice for keeping a hold of the information, even if we can't get back to it immediately, it will wait for us, so will the game. Plus the holiday season is here and *stuff* happens a lot during these seasons.

I will continue to offer you assistance in your project, but I do believe you're back on track. So I'll be around to confirm your choices for your cull/keep foals should you want that, plus if you need some help picking out new breeding stock, I can also run through the market for that as well, of course this does also include stud options.
There are a lot of AC arabians for sale in the market, so before spending all of your PT in the adoption center, cruise what's for sale first (although, now that I type this, it hits me that you probably already thought of it). Some ways to help you search for AC stock in the sales section is to only search for horses 4 years and over, and to also give a price limit, start at 1 (to exclude all 'offers only' stock) and I generally limit it to 10,000. Plus limit their height between 13.2 and 16 hh. Although an arabian's height is 'perfect' between 14 and 15.3hh, the AC will sometimes offer stock with heights just outside of acceptable limits (and will also take into consideration those couple that haven't yet finished growing yet). This should take the search down quite a few horses and make cruising through them a little quicker. Any that's over 42,000 HGP are not AC stock (but still may be worth considering since they may be only a couple generations out and with pure blood), also any with more than two golds or two greens or a gold and a green are not AC stock (again with some salt, because they may be within a couple generations of AC, but there is that very rare one that's two greens and a gold and is still AC. In my time, I've seen one of those, but I think it was a shetland). Also, keep in mind that AC stock HGP may be as low as 25,000 (I think the lowest I found was in the 23,000's... that might have been a turkmene).

You're thinking about your herd now, considering how to improve them along your projected objectives and your decisions are carefully thought out and objectively considered. At this point my aid will nominally be needed to build your confidence in your own choices. But if you need more than just that, of course I'll be around! Plus, I'm sure there are other players keeping notes on the discussion and will jump in if they see a need.

[PeacefulOreo]

~Royale Arabians~

Yes... i'm sorry... there are already a million other breeding communities for Arabians...and I've already made about a million posts... jk but this IS SEPARATE from my farm log, and is NOT YOUR STANDARD ARABIAN BREEDING COMMUNITY:

simple: Royalty are a step above everyone else, right? well, I want to create those Arabians. unique, incredibly high stat Arabians, Arabians that everyone will recognise- Royal Arabians

I have a number of goals in mind for this project, but they are kind of scattered at the moment:
1.) (and this one is definite!) increase conformation, as high as possible
2.) create a unique appearance (leopard, or pinto - or something )
3.) and of course, Brand recognition

but first, i need some data ....... what is the highest confirmation ever found in an arabian on HWO?
what is the highest speed? strength? stamina? you get the picture.. can any stat be maxed out at about 68? or is that only for speed? and if movement is supposed to be a weak point in arabians, why do my horses have movement at around 50 when stamina is much lower, (a supposedly strong point?) can anyone help?

I have many fine Arabians if you'd like to look at them: http://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/pasture/85635 and http://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/pasture/92394

My best Arabians came from Cormac x Nina or Cedric x Nina

[HowrseGal27]

I'm working on lowering my COI's in my herd. So far I'm doing really well. So far my best horse is Hidalgo. He's at 68,851 with a COI of 35.13%. My whole herd is improving. Feel free to look at them and see if you like any. I'm also looking for new horses to keep my COI's going down.

[Royale Ranch]

a massive thanks to all those that have helped on this thread! and sorry that ive been AWOL for so long.... im going to make a huge effort to keep things a little more regular now...

to those that have posted things like: take a look at my horse - yes, i defiantly will.. as soon as i untangle the mess my heard is currently in - which shouldnt be too far away.

so where am i at right now?
first priority is to get more pony tokens before my premium runs out.... *scared face*

but on par with that... there's no point in me breeding this horse and that horse until i know exactly what im looking at getting..so: what is the ideal horse that i wish to achieve at the end of this project?

the answer is not so simple... and i need help.

in short: i wish to create a record breaking endurance horse (preferably a purebred arabian.)
note: although i wish to keep my heard pure arabians for this project, i'm not necessarily sticking to their true form (because there isnt so much of a chance of achieving a high ranking endurance horse then...)

but what does that look like?

please, i need help - ive listed what i think below, but truly not sure if im on the right track:

Temperament: bombproof????
COI: the lower the better - <35%?
HGP: as high as possible - eventually GP: 70+ but not in focus right now
height: ?
build? medium light?
Weight: ?
body size?
horse type?

stats to focus on according to Larissar's discipline summary:
Stamina:
Speed:
Agility:
Tempo:
is it possible to achieve 60+ conformation in all these stats simultaneously?

and as blackoak has so patiently explained to me, the conformation could allude to appearance whereas the breeders report subtlety displays genes...
1
however what about the appearance?
going through the conformation for apperance, i must admit that im a little confused - can these change as the horses age? also, the figures here must be infulenced my genes as well?
with the body shape confomation, lets say you can rank the position of the green bar out of 100.. like a percentage. far left is 0, far right is 100.

for face profile, my average horse has a position of between 30 and 60, with a stamina rank of between 6 and 8. however, i have some horses with a 45 position with a 6 rank, others in the same position with 8.. does this really effect anything then? if that makes sense at all??

concentrating on the body shape areas that apparently affect stamina:
face profile: dished
face length: long
neck length: ?
point of shoulder?
rib cage:
depth of flank:
back length:

are these correct or???? please let me know what you all think, and thanks for patiently putting up with my rambling!

ping!

ping!

ping!

ping!

ping!

ping!

ping!

sorry not trying to spam - just think you'd be interested maybe?


to to conclude:
immediate goals:
1. get pt lol - prolly have to move most to side accounts to do this though....
2. define 'ideal endurance horse'
3. chose a small number of horses to keep, rest go - start with some fresh AC blood alongside kept horses...

what do you think?

[BlackOak2]

...

Let me first say, welcome back!

I'll try to be as straightforward with this as I can, of course some of this may not be exactly correct, if there are others that have some more accurate insight, by all means, take their advice.

Endurance Horse stats.

Temperament: bombproof????

I suppose the general consensus is bombproof works best for endurance. I have nothing to say about this except for you to go with this until you determine that another temperament works better. The great thing is that thus far, I haven't seen or heard of any horse that can't reach bombproof by being on pasture.

There is only one thing I can add to this, if for some reason bombproof isn't the correct temperament, if you breed for bombproof, it may be difficult to escape from it, on the other hand, AC arabs don't have a big tendency to be bombproof restricted, so that might not be a problem to begin with.

COI: the lower the better - <35%?

I think you know by now that I'm for this.
I find that every third generation or so of an outbreed keeps this number right about where it should be.

HGP: as high as possible - eventually GP: 70+ but not in focus right now

Another I need to say nothing about.

height: ?

As this (along with some other stats), doesn't seem to directly affect competitions, this is left entirely to your discretion. However, attempting to sell oversized arabs doesn't seem to do so well. I'd recommend eventually aiming for true arab size.

According to some online 'Ideal Endurance Horse' sites, the best endurance horses stand at about 15 hands.

build? medium light?

Again, this is a question of how much this has a bearing in the competitions on HWO. I can't answer this directly, maybe somebody else can. Definitely the heavy types are out. With that understood, only medium types and lighter.

So I turn to internet sources for a more specific answer. It seems that a lot of the sites agree on a lighter body frame overall, with a slightly bulkier frame for more mountainous trails.

What this comes down to, however, will be determined by the size and type, so I would nominally ignore the build and let it decide what the outcome is; instead I would focus on the size and type.

Weight: ?

This one's easy, thin to moderately thin. Figuring exactly the perfect spot may be different for each horse though. One may offer more at thin while it's full sibling may do better as a moderately thin.

body size?

This hasn't been discussed much on HWO. I don't know how much this comes into play in competitions either, so again, I turn to internet sources for further information. They all offer a lighter horse, but they also agree that the horses need to have some stoutness to them. So personally, I would aim for a body size toward the 40's or 50's. The arabians really lack in this area, trying to increase this may prove difficult. The good thing is, I'm working on a very heavy arabian line and this could work very well, if you're interested in breeding out to help develop this area faster.
However, this is working with the assumption that the body size plays a heavier part in competitions.

horse type?

Again, this hasn't been discussed much on HWO and I can't offer any further insight into how much this might affect competitions. Nor does online sites offer any difference between pony versus horse types for endurance. So I really have no answer for how much type it should be.
The top endurance horses on HWO are super lights.

The stats: Stamina; Speed; Agility; Tempo. I can't answer the top numbers for these. But I'm sure you already know that.

Conformation stats should not change through the horses life. It's based on their bone-structure and not on their muscle structure, so it will take the horse 'as an adult' and offer stats on this. It's a solid score number like the breeding report and the HGP is. So you can evaluate a foal the moment they drop and rehome them if they don't stack up.
So it works this way: genes affecting conformation stats: if both horses have long noses, these 'long nose genes' will be passed down to the foal. So is conformation affected by genes? Yes. However, that doesn't mean you can't have some hidden 'short nose genes' that suddenly pop up. That being said, the conformation stat numbers are on the actual and not the hidden. So the short nose genes will not bring down the number for the long nose.
Maybe this will help:
If the score is based on the length of the nose, say 0 to 100 'inches' (I know that's one odd looking horse)
The horse has a nose of 60 inches but carries hidden genes for 20 inches, the score will still be 60, because the conformation score is the actual and doesn't account for anything hidden.

Remember that conformation (stat score) is about refining the 'nearly perfect' endurance horse. So if you have a horse that lacks in every conformation stat, but does exceptionally well anyway in endurance competitions, then spread these genes throughout your herd, because not only does this horse have the genes for the talent, but has the ability to produce an exceptional endurance line.

So now on to: 'body shape areas that apparently affect stamina'

So one must ask oneself: Is focusing solely on stamina the correct 'conformation' to focus on? It is indeed the most important trait, but should it be the sole focus? In this I must answer that I would focus on this as the overriding factor, such as if two traits are affected on one conformation stat, then stamina should be prioritized, but the other factors should make an appearance, not just be completely ignored.
As I type this, I realize that you probably have already, or would have come to this same conclusion.

face profile: dished

Light is the ideal face, stay away from heavy faces at all costs. This one is easy.
But whether this means dished or not, I don't know. I can offer what to look for, but since I don't use conformation stats, I can't really offer insight into what it actually looks like...

face length: long

Definitely longer, a shorter face enhances agility, but since the longer is better for stamina, go with longer.

neck length: ?

I would suggest go for the longer neck. Since speed is your #2 stat in stamina, it will have an impact.

point of shoulder?

The horse's point of shoulder is at the front of the chest. If it sits higher, toward the neck it should increase the angle, thereby creating more slope, but for stamina, you want this point to be lower. Therefore, I would also suggest the withers to be less angular, for instance, go for this:


instead of this:

(But I could be wrong with that)

rib cage:

This one's pretty easy. The bigger these are, the better for stamina.

depth of flank:

So a shallow flank can be best described (the way I understood it best), is the greyhound appearance, through the stomach area. A deep flank is the opposite.

back length:

Back length helps two stats for endurance, but in opposing ways. Longer is better for tempo, but shorter is better for agility. Since agility is #3 in endurance competitions, it trumps tempo, so go for the shorter back.


I must here add to include a thicker jowl, although this doesn't directly impact stamina, a thicker jowl (big cheek), does give an advantage to agility, which could prove to be the deciding factor between two equal horses. I would also include a longer hip to enhance speed, since it has no negative impact on stamina, the longer the hip, the better the speed stat will be (what you'll be looking for is the two bony parts on the rump, the point of hip to the 'butt bone', the longer this is, the better for speed). Also, stay away from thicker legs since this decreases the speed stat. You will want to keep a forward stifle as well, and I think as you attempt to lengthen the hip, this stifle may want to migrate backward. The forward stifle helps to enhace agility. And as a last note, the croup height. There are three stats affected here, speed (going downhill, with the higher butt than the withers) and even that aids bot agility and tempo. I'm not sure which one you should focus on, but I'm leaning toward attempting to keep the croup as even as possible, definitely shying away from uphill angles, but not over-exaggerating the downhill racing design).


I think you should find your bloodlines and keep a couple from each one that you like and that fits where you want to go, for instance, if you have half siblings or full siblings, but one is definitely better than the other, just keep one.
But for me, I'm too attached most times, so I would breed together and keep just one foal from all the pairs, until I reduce my herd to acceptable numbers. COI would explode upward, but I wouldn't loose any genes. I'm a hard cull'er, but with that comes unacceptable loss if even one breeder disappears without offering an acceptable offspring.