Surprise Tobiano

[Shadow Scar]

Somehow bred a champagne Tobiano from two champagne parents. Is this a glitch or does one (or both) simply have such a low expression of the gene that it can't be seen?
Unnamed Horse #2568063

His Dam and Sire both have a parent that expressed Tobiano, however they themselves have not even a speck of white on them.
Sire: Howling Hunt (Ch)

Dam: Painted Conquest (Ch)

GrandSire: Spray Paint

[Honey creek stables]

Somehow bred a champagne Tobiano from two champagne parents. Is this a glitch or does one (or both) simply have such a low expression of the gene that it can't be seen?
Unnamed Horse #2568063

His Dam and Sire both have a parent that expressed Tobiano, however they themselves have not even a speck of white on them.
Sire: Howling Hunt (Ch)

Dam: Painted Conquest (Ch)

GrandSire: Spray Paint

This is not a glitch the tabiona came from the grandsire

[Shadow Scar]

I realize that the gene was passed on by Spray Paint, but my question is how. If tobiano is a dominant trait and he passed it on to even just one of the parents it should be expressed by some form of white markings on either Painted or Howling. However, from simply looking at them you’d assume they took after their dam and didn’t possess the tobiano gene.

[BlackOak2]

I realize that the gene was passed on by Spray Paint, but my question is how. If tobiano is a dominant trait and he passed it on to even just one of the parents it should be expressed by some form of white markings on either Painted or Howling. However, from simply looking at them you’d assume they took after their dam and didn’t possess the tobiano gene.

Just like some of the other genes we have on here (Leopard Complex), Tobiano works off of two primary styles of genes, one is a switch gene (turns the gene on to be visible or the other one is 'off' though it's actually the absence of the ability to express it, so we say 'off' gene for understanding), and the other is the patterning genes (genes, not a singular gene, perhaps though, it's multiple alleles and not multiple genes, I'm not sure on that). In order to see what patterning genes the horse has, you will need to have the 'on' switch gene to see them.

So looking over what happened, he must have single copies of both the patterning and the switch. Which also means that the mare likely has no patterning genes at all (she's just an unknown), but she could have a single switch gene (still an unknown). One parent (the sire or the dame) would have had to pass down a switch gene, but neither (Spray Paint included) passed on any patterning genes to one offspring.
So one, either Howling Hunt or Painted Conquest is a switch carrier and the other is the pattern carrier. Thus you have the ability to 'skip a generation' and throw tobiano around from solid parents.

Does that make sense?

[Silverine]

I realize that the gene was passed on by Spray Paint, but my question is how. If tobiano is a dominant trait and he passed it on to even just one of the parents it should be expressed by some form of white markings on either Painted or Howling. However, from simply looking at them you’d assume they took after their dam and didn’t possess the tobiano gene.

Just like some of the other genes we have on here (Leopard Complex), Tobiano works off of two primary styles of genes, one is a switch gene (turns the gene on to be visible or the other one is 'off' though it's actually the absence of the ability to express it, so we say 'off' gene for understanding), and the other is the patterning genes (genes, not a singular gene, perhaps though, it's multiple alleles and not multiple genes, I'm not sure on that). In order to see what patterning genes the horse has, you will need to have the 'on' switch gene to see them.

So looking over what happened, he must have single copies of both the patterning and the switch. Which also means that the mare likely has no patterning genes at all (she's just an unknown), but she could have a single switch gene (still an unknown). One parent (the sire or the dame) would have had to pass down a switch gene, but neither (Spray Paint included) passed on any patterning genes to one offspring.
So one, either Howling Hunt or Painted Conquest is a switch carrier and the other is the pattern carrier. Thus you have the ability to 'skip a generation' and throw tobiano around from solid parents.

Does that make sense?

I believe what happened here is what often happens when a loud tobiano is bred to a non-tobiano AC that is neither a NAB nor a Shetland. With the way tobiano behaves it appears as though there is a tertiary gene that controls whether or not white can be expressed above the legs and this gene appears to be recessive. So, for example, a NAB would be homozygous for the body-white gene and would pass a single copy of that gene to its offspring. The offspring would not be able to express body white itself but would have the potential to have foals with body white.

I believe what happened was this:

Spray Paint x Wreaking Havoc - both foals possessed a single copy of the body white gene, inherited from Spray Paint. One or both horses also possessed a To gene - the switch to show white. Because they only had one body white gene, any possible white above the knees or hocks would not show up. Then, Wreaking Havoc must have possessed (or at least passed on) no genes for white below the knees/hocks, ending up with foals that appeared completely devoid of tobiano. But if both of them pass on the body white gene when bred together they can produce a foal with body white.

This body white gene is completely separate from the genes regarding pattern placement, etc. So a horse can have the gene for white placement on say the neck or flank, but wouldn't be able to show it if it wasn't homozygous for the ability to display body white.

[BlackOak2]

Or like Silverine said!

Either way, there are a lot of expression variables that go into Tobiano.

There's some study topics in my quicklinks for Tobiano, though I don't know how active they've been recently. They may or may not shed more light, if you need it, or if you wanted to tackle something more about it, they could be added to.

[Silverine]

It may not be like I've said, but it certainly seems that way.

I may pick up some ACs and cross them to my full-white Gypsies and see what happens. Though that will have to wait until I'm "done" with my Lp experiments. If that ever happens.

[Shadow Scar]

Goodness Here I was thinking I had a plain champagne pair, yet tobiano was just lurking in the background lol. As tempting as it is to try and experiment with such a gene my hands are already full with a full dilute project and my early fleabitten grey experiment. Thanks for the help guys!

[Honey creek stables]

Goodness Here I was thinking I had a plain champagne pair, yet tobiano was just lurking in the background lol. As tempting as it is to try and experiment with such a gene my hands are already full with a full dilute project and my early fleabitten grey experiment. Thanks for the help guys!

Np!Have a great day!