Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

[Gaagii]

Okay so decided to make a general post based on how 'plume' displays throughout the horses in my stable.


"Flaxen" x Lp x plume
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LP x plume x pangare
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Plume x tiger eye (green)
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Plume x sooty
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Plume x strong LP varnish
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2nd Plume x strong LP varnish
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Plume x feathers x pangare
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Plume x feathers
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Plume (mane only) x strong pangare
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Plume (mane, tail, fetlocks) x strong pangare
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Plume x feathers x Lp
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High expressed plume
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Plume x Dun x Lp
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High plume with flopped over mane
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Roan x Plume (mane only) x normal feathers
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"Flaxen" x Roan x Lp (developing snowflake)
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Plume x Sooty x White Stockings (so white removes silver fetlocks).
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Plume x Lp x Feathers
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Plume x progressive darkening / sooty x feathers
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Plume x Lp x sooty

[Gaagii]

I think I am coming to a 'close' on the color study of the plume coloration. So here is some

Observations

These of course are subject to change if can be proven otherwise but these are observations regarding the "plume" marking.

The plume gene
So the 'plume' gene alters the coloration of a horse's mane, tail, and fetlocks/feathers by adding a silver/white coloration to what would be an otherwise solid colored points.

It appears that the plume is:
Recessive to non 'plume' horses
Incomplete Dominant as you can get mane without tail, mane & tail without fetlocks.
Three Intensities I refer to as low, normal, and high
Bay Based
Black and Chestnut carry the gene but don't express it
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Juniper Warrior displays a high version of all three (mane, tail & fetlocks)
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Bay vs Black
I've come to be the conclusion, for now, that plume is connected with dominant agouti and extension. Why? Because extension and only recessive agouti will give you black. Extension and any of the dominant agoutis (AA, AtAt, A/a, At/a) will give you bay (or with At 'seal brown').

Blacks seem to carry the plume gene - I've bred AC blacks to plume horses & gotten plume foals and bred blacks with plume ancestry to plume horses & gotten plume foals - but to date it seems impossible for black horses to express this actual 'plume' marking.

Bay Variations
So far as long as the horse is bay plume will express on the following as shown:

Roan

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Leopard
0.8 years
3 years
5 years
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Single Cream (/Buckskin)

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Double Cream (/Dilute)
0.63 years
2 years
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Pangare

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Dun

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Sooty
4 years
17 years
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Metallic

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Bronzing (Added 22/09/2019)


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Plume + Leopard Complex (and/or Bronzing)
Blackoak2 had some curious questions about plume + Lp. What would it do? How would it look? It's one of the variations I worked the most on.

Well first it doesn't seem to matter what plume extension there's always a visible line where plume is on regular manes for 'mohawks'. Visible in Romping Ace & his granddaughters Limited Passion & Renegade Rose
Ace
Passion
Rose


Plume + Sooty + Leopard complex makes for an interesting look.




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The Chestnut Quandary
So what about chestnut? Chestnut is non extension plus whatever agouti (no extension = no agouti expressed). If plume is indeed connected with extension plus agouti that means it shouldn't show on actual chestnuts.

Right?

So what are these?

As said here these "flaxen chestnuts" appear to be recessive to plume itself as when bred to other horses/plumes they don't reproduce themselves except one.

They appear plume related though because they have the silver fetlocks.


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Silver Fetlocks
So silver fetlocks are just that, fetlocks silvered by the plume gene. Like with the mane/tail combo the intensity of the fetlocks varies from low to high.

The odd thing is silver fetlocks seem to either lack or possess dilute points. While more intense silver fetlocks spread quite far (resembling bay points) which supports the idea 'plume' connected with the agouti bay gene in some round about way.

No fetlocks = points


Silver fetlocks = diluted points


Silver fetlocks = no points


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The Darkening Factor
This is present in some of the lines. The horses get progressively darker (sooty?) that affects the body and the points.
5 years
17 years

[BlackOak2]

...

Thank you for this.
As always, very informative.

[Gaagii]

Bit of an oddball. The legs show a vague plume pattern but only seems to be the upper half

[BlackOak2]

Bit of an oddball. The legs show a vague plume pattern but only seems to be the upper half

That is certainly an interesting occurrence.
It's beginning to remind me of frosting. Although I can find almost nothing that refers to anything related to this. There are colors in other animals that's similar, such as sable in dogs and grizzled in cats (the end of the hair is differently colored then the base), but the closest in horses is this frosting, that's most often used as a color for leopard markings and not as it's own 'gene'.
It's still remarkable, whatever gene it is.

[Gaagii]

Bit of an oddball. The legs show a vague plume pattern but only seems to be the upper half

That is certainly an interesting occurrence.
It's beginning to remind me of frosting. Although I can find almost nothing that refers to anything related to this. There are colors in other animals that's similar, such as sable in dogs and grizzled in cats (the end of the hair is differently colored then the base), but the closest in horses is this frosting, that's most often used as a color for leopard markings and not as it's own 'gene'.
It's still remarkable, whatever gene it is.

What's called 'frosting' seems mostly connected with buckskins & duns irl > http://equinetapestry.com/2014/08/frosted-buckskins/ < which the website connects with the coloring of Fjords but is limited in expression. Those old "plume" (http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4143) way back more resembled the limited expression of 'frosting' but if I remember correctly (being a while) Tom said they were a glitch.

This current 'plume' in a way more vaguely resembles Gulastra plume > http://equinetapestry.com/2012/11/gulastras-plume/ < due to how it changes the entire tail (and can also do the mane) rather than just the edges. But Gulastra is assumed irl to be an oddball sabino/rabicano marking (a sort of intense 'skunk tail') it shouldn't be limited to just bays as it seems to be here.


The thing is, is this plume showed up originally with no known leopard (a new addition to the gene pool) and there is no known sabino/rabicano/tobiano genes at play. So it's not leopard & it's not 'paint'. So, by that, it possibly can't be either frosting or gulastra.


It's, to date, solely reserved to bays & covers nearly every variation - dun, cream (single & double), leopard, roan, pangare, sooty & metallic - of bay with/without feathers available on the game (except paint as haven't introduced that gene). It appears to refuse to display on black (but black can carry it) & the same seems to be for chestnut (haven't fully examined chestnut).

The odd thing is those "flaxen chestnuts" that occasionally pop up are recessive to this "plume" itself.
One makes the recessiveness very obvious, dame has a "flaxen chestnut" (3rd generation), sire has a "flaxen chestnut" (4th generation) & both have the same "flaxen chestnut" a few times further back but the rest of the horses are all visibly non-chestnuts (predominantly bay with plume of varying intensity) for 6-7 generations.


So brings back the idea it's some oddball silver or some oddball intermediate between silver/flaxen.

Flaxen - influences chestnut but as chestnut has no black for points who knows if it dilutes them
Silver - influences black (actual blacks dilute) & bays retain most of their body color but silver dilutes mane, tail & bay points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_da ... Morgan.jpg)

[BlackOak2]

What's called 'frosting' seems mostly connected with buckskins & duns irl > http://equinetapestry.com/2014/08/frosted-buckskins/ < which the website connects with the coloring of Fjords but is limited in expression. Those old "plume" (http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4143) way back more resembled the limited expression of 'frosting' but if I remember correctly (being a while) Tom said they were a glitch.

This current 'plume' in a way more vaguely resembles Gulastra plume > http://equinetapestry.com/2012/11/gulastras-plume/ < due to how it changes the entire tail (and can also do the mane) rather than just the edges. But Gulastra is assumed irl to be an oddball sabino/rabicano marking (a sort of intense 'skunk tail') it shouldn't be limited to just bays as it seems to be here.


The thing is, is this plume showed up originally with no known leopard (a new addition to the gene pool) and there is no known sabino/rabicano/tobiano genes at play. So it's not leopard & it's not 'paint'. So, by that, it possibly can't be either frosting or gulastra.


It's, to date, solely reserved to bays & covers nearly every variation - dun, cream (single & double), leopard, roan, pangare, sooty & metallic - of bay with/without feathers available on the game (except paint as haven't introduced that gene). It appears to refuse to display on black (but black can carry it) & the same seems to be for chestnut (haven't fully examined chestnut).

The odd thing is those "flaxen chestnuts" that occasionally pop up are recessive to this "plume" itself.
One makes the recessiveness very obvious, dame has a "flaxen chestnut" (3rd generation), sire has a "flaxen chestnut" (4th generation) & both have the same "flaxen chestnut" a few times further back but the rest of the horses are all visibly non-chestnuts (predominantly bay with plume of varying intensity) for 6-7 generations.


So brings back the idea it's some oddball silver or some oddball intermediate between silver/flaxen.

Flaxen - influences chestnut but as chestnut has no black for points who knows if it dilutes them
Silver - influences black (actual blacks dilute) & bays retain most of their body color but silver dilutes mane, tail & bay points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_da ... Morgan.jpg)

It was a thought. It had suddenly hit me that I have seen this type of coloration in real life, but not on horses. On both cats and dogs. So it could have been considered a relation-type gene to that. But when I tried to bring anything up about it on the internet, all I got back was frosting the hair (dyeing people hair) or leopard complex and rabicano colorations. How annoying the internet can be at times.
But thank you for that frosted buckskin page. For whatever reason (and maybe I overlooked it), it didn't come up on my search.
But that really isn't this gene anyway. Like I said, it was only a thought.

Other than that red-tailed bay I produced, I haven't had any other unusual ones come yet... of course, that project is super-slow, so it'll take awhile.
I did produce a champagne, I don't recall if I posted it or not. I'm not sure if it's plume, or rather like the red-tailed bay.


You're the expert on them now, and dilutes have never been my strong suit anyway.

[Gaagii]

What's called 'frosting' seems mostly connected with buckskins & duns irl > http://equinetapestry.com/2014/08/frosted-buckskins/ < which the website connects with the coloring of Fjords but is limited in expression. Those old "plume" (http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4143) way back more resembled the limited expression of 'frosting' but if I remember correctly (being a while) Tom said they were a glitch.

This current 'plume' in a way more vaguely resembles Gulastra plume > http://equinetapestry.com/2012/11/gulastras-plume/ < due to how it changes the entire tail (and can also do the mane) rather than just the edges. But Gulastra is assumed irl to be an oddball sabino/rabicano marking (a sort of intense 'skunk tail') it shouldn't be limited to just bays as it seems to be here.


The thing is, is this plume showed up originally with no known leopard (a new addition to the gene pool) and there is no known sabino/rabicano/tobiano genes at play. So it's not leopard & it's not 'paint'. So, by that, it possibly can't be either frosting or gulastra.


It's, to date, solely reserved to bays & covers nearly every variation - dun, cream (single & double), leopard, roan, pangare, sooty & metallic - of bay with/without feathers available on the game (except paint as haven't introduced that gene). It appears to refuse to display on black (but black can carry it) & the same seems to be for chestnut (haven't fully examined chestnut).

The odd thing is those "flaxen chestnuts" that occasionally pop up are recessive to this "plume" itself.
One makes the recessiveness very obvious, dame has a "flaxen chestnut" (3rd generation), sire has a "flaxen chestnut" (4th generation) & both have the same "flaxen chestnut" a few times further back but the rest of the horses are all visibly non-chestnuts (predominantly bay with plume of varying intensity) for 6-7 generations.


So brings back the idea it's some oddball silver or some oddball intermediate between silver/flaxen.

Flaxen - influences chestnut but as chestnut has no black for points who knows if it dilutes them
Silver - influences black (actual blacks dilute) & bays retain most of their body color but silver dilutes mane, tail & bay points (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_da ... Morgan.jpg)

It was a thought. It had suddenly hit me that I have seen this type of coloration in real life, but not on horses. On both cats and dogs. So it could have been considered a relation-type gene to that. But when I tried to bring anything up about it on the internet, all I got back was frosting the hair (dyeing people hair) or leopard complex and rabicano colorations. How annoying the internet can be at times.
But thank you for that frosted buckskin page. For whatever reason (and maybe I overlooked it), it didn't come up on my search.
But that really isn't this gene anyway. Like I said, it was only a thought.

Other than that red-tailed bay I produced, I haven't had any other unusual ones come yet... of course, that project is super-slow, so it'll take awhile.
I did produce a champagne, I don't recall if I posted it or not. I'm not sure if it's plume, or rather like the red-tailed bay.


You're the expert on them now, and dilutes have never been my strong suit anyway.

Oh I know, just a thought. That's all this 'gene' seems to be right now, a thought. The "what" it is is still up in the air as they say. Cause that bay I posted yesterday is an oddity to an already odd expression.

Dilutes have never been a strong point for me, either.
But here's mine >
Coastal Rust


Yours appears to have the fetlocks, maybe, as here's another dilute (silver, think)
Horse
without the discolored feathers


Looking at the 'red tail' I may have seen it in my lines prior but never really paid it any attention as it wasn't quite an exact plume.

[BlackOak2]

Oh I know, just a thought. That's all this 'gene' seems to be right now, a thought. The "what" it is is still up in the air as they say. Cause that bay I posted yesterday is an oddity to an already odd expression.

Dilutes have never been a strong point for me, either.
But here's mine >

Yours appears to have the fetlocks, maybe, as here's another dilute (silver, think)


Looking at the 'red tail' I may have seen it in my lines prior but never really paid it any attention as it wasn't quite an exact plume.

They are still quite beautiful and I do wonder how far this oddity of a 'maybe gene, maybe not'... will extend.

[Kingsley]

Love all the work you've put into studying this color. Now you're making me want to breed plume horses, as if I don't have enough projects as is lol. Did you ever get any brown or wild bay plume?