Dun or not?

[BlackOak2]

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Wow! Yeah, even with the contrast tweaked on my monitor (which doesn't actually shift that far) I don't see neck markings on Crown. I specifically looked for all the places that I knew to look for faint striping, including the neck/shoulder, and I'd thought he was clear. So, thank you for spotting that. It remains invisible to me.

And thanks for verifying for the filly. My hope was that the weird sort of mask-like shade to her body was just a normal variation and not Dun, so it's reassuring to know that you think so as well. I shall add her to the No-Dun pile!

I have to zoom to 500% to see markings like this as well. And indeed, had to do that to see the mark on crown.

It does seem you have bred out all the primitive markings and are down to the barest minimum of indicators. They would be, that neck marking, the fetlock color shift and the facial mask.

We'll try to keep you straight.

[stickers]

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Hello! it's me again. I've been doing much better about spotting sneaky duns... but I've once more run into one that I really can't make a decision on.

Is this dun or extreme pangare? I don't see any sign of a dorsal stripe or other dark markings... but boy that faded body! And do his fetlocks look light to you? I really can't decide what's actually going on with this guy and would love the help.

[BlackOak2]

Hello! it's me again. I've been doing much better about spotting sneaky duns... but I've once more run into one that I really can't make a decision on.

Is this dun or extreme pangare? I don't see any sign of a dorsal stripe or other dark markings... but boy that faded body! And do his fetlocks look light to you? I really can't decide what's actually going on with this guy and would love the help.

You're as much an expert on dun as I am right now (monitor capability aside ), so before I look at this, let me say that you're first assumptions are probably correct.

Now... let me look

Do you notice how the leg discoloration runs down the front of the legs?
Dun will mark the back, right at the ankle with discoloration (it may also extend further, but it begins there).
Pangare on the other hand, runs downward along the front (not staring at the back on the ankle). In some cases (especially on chestnuts with flaxen), these three genes, flaxen, dun and pangare are almost indistinguishable. However, the key differences are noted as: pangare extends down the legs (from the stomach), dun re-appears on the ankles and spreads both upward and downward, and flaxen extends up from the hoof.

You have a pangare on a bay, without any signs of dun at all. I would agree that this colt is dun-free.

[stickers]

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Haha!! See, this is why I know you're still more of a dun (and other things) expert than me. I still have learning to do!

Now I've got to go back and compare some similar-looking duns and flaxens to this guy to see what you're talking about. For science!

[BlackOak2]

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Haha!! See, this is why I know you're still more of a dun (and other things) expert than me. I still have learning to do!

Now I've got to go back and compare some similar-looking duns and flaxens to this guy to see what you're talking about. For science!

LOL


I'm no expert, I just see patterns.

[stickers]

Dangit... well, I already need your pattern-recognizing skills, or at least your general knowledge and better monitor, again.

My first question is, this horse is dun, yes?




My second questions is... which of their parents is at fault for it? Theoretically, this foal should have been dun-free, so something went wrong somewhere. Both parents had been in my no-dun pile, and I'm still not seeing signs of dun in their photos, so I'm at a loss. My suspicion is it's probably the sire's fault because the varnish maybe hid things, but I still would think that I would at least see a dorsal stripe or something.

Any clever observations on this one?

[BlackOak2]

Dangit... well, I already need your pattern-recognizing skills, or at least your general knowledge and better monitor, again.

My first question is, this horse is dun, yes?

My second questions is... which of their parents is at fault for it? Theoretically, this foal should have been dun-free, so something went wrong somewhere. Both parents had been in my no-dun pile, and I'm still not seeing signs of dun in their photos, so I'm at a loss. My suspicion is it's probably the sire's fault because the varnish maybe hid things, but I still would think that I would at least see a dorsal stripe or something.

Any clever observations on this one?

That definitely appears to be a dun mask, and I agree, the faulting parent would have to be the sire. But here's where it gets tricky.
Sometimes (big sometimes) the leopard complex mask can appear just like a dun mask. I'm only just becoming aware of it myself. So does the spinal stripe indicate dun? I would assume so and both the sire and the daughter both have it in their yearling photos.

How can we tell for sure? Maybe find a very expressive dun line that's lost their dun and cross over into that line. If these two horses are carriers, it should pop a foal that is quite blatant (that's assuming it gets passed on). Prez are generally quite blatant and tarpans, but sometimes tarpans are more gentle as well. Both of those will only ever carry dun from the AC.

The flip side of this coin is that you have offered an Lp expression that defines a dun-like mask that is not dun.

So what can be done? See if you can get thunder crown to throw a foal that looks like this that doesn't have varnish.

So my opinion is that this filly, Super Crown, is dun and it came from the sire (really what other assumption can be assumed at this point?). He did appear to get the same expression from his mother, but could have also received it from his father.

[stickers]

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I wouldn't have considered the possibility that a leopard varnish mask could look like a dun mask. Very interesting! I'd been wondering why he hadn't been throwing dun-looking foals at the rate I would expect if he'd actually been carrying dun. So, that's either another sign that this isn't really dun, or it's just a coincidence.

I guess I'll keep the sire in the breeding program for now and see what else he throws. If it's a bunch of duns, that'll be the answer, haha. Especially if I get one that has no varnish.

Thanks for yet another insight that I wouldn't have thought of on my own! Time for more experimentation...

[BlackOak2]

I wouldn't have considered the possibility that a leopard varnish mask could look like a dun mask. Very interesting! I'd been wondering why he hadn't been throwing dun-looking foals at the rate I would expect if he'd actually been carrying dun. So, that's either another sign that this isn't really dun, or it's just a coincidence.

I guess I'll keep the sire in the breeding program for now and see what else he throws. If it's a bunch of duns, that'll be the answer, haha. Especially if I get one that has no varnish.

Thanks for yet another insight that I wouldn't have thought of on my own! Time for more experimentation...

Well, throwing dun from a potential carrier is always 50/50 anyway. Flip a coin and it could always comes up heads (no dun), just as randomly as coming up all tails (dun).
The good thing is that he'll willingly throw no-duns, so that at least means he's only a single gene carrier.

I have just as much trouble seeing around the leopard genes as you're experiencing, so you're not alone.

We'll get through it, won't we? Hah!

[stickers]

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Aaagh the doubt is setting in. I've found another sneaky dun in the shouldn't-have-dun-anymore pile, which is making me doubt all of the ones I'd previously thought had been confidently screened for it.

My theory for this one is that it's the sire's fault, which is a bummer because he's one that I'd originally put in this thread some time ago and we'd both thought was dun-free.




Any thoughts in this case would (as always) be super appreciated. And later I might put up a few more in here to double-check my work.