Subtle sooty dapples?

[Meanwhile]

Hello friends who have better eyes than me and are better at knowing what to look for when sooty dapple is really subtle. I have a couple examples bookmarked that I've been trying to look back and forth between, but it's still hard for me to tell what's an actual sign of dapple and what's only a normal "smudge" in the artwork that is just being amplified by sooty or metallic.

This is the pasture of the horses that are waiting to grow up and be identified: Here

A couple of these I'm pretty sure do have it and a couple that I think don't have it, but I'd love a second (or third etc) opinion if anyone wants to give it a shot!

[BlackOak2]

Hello friends who have better eyes than me and are better at knowing what to look for when sooty dapple is really subtle. I have a couple examples bookmarked that I've been trying to look back and forth between, but it's still hard for me to tell what's an actual sign of dapple and what's only a normal "smudge" in the artwork that is just being amplified by sooty or metallic.

This is the pasture of the horses that are waiting to grow up and be identified: Here

A couple of these I'm pretty sure do have it and a couple that I think don't have it, but I'd love a second (or third etc) opinion if anyone wants to give it a shot!

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3925515 -This one looks like he missed it. Has the sooty gene, but didn't get the dapples. Has some weirdness over those hips, but I think that's more artifacts from the horse and not actually dappling.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4022570 -This one appears to've missed the sooty gene itself. So the dapples will be unknown. You can actually see some of the artifacts across her hips like the above. Anyway, unless your sooty comes in later in life, I'd say she's simply unknown for both carrying or displaying.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4026485 -This one got the sooty and is still younger. Dapples may or may not appear as the sooty darkens. Currently, I don't see any indication of them. But the sooty isn't really strong yet either. So...??

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4032798 -This one is in the same spot as the one above. Got the sooty, just starting to come in, no sign of dapples yet and that might change.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4042341 -Very early on this one. No sign of sooty at all yet. Still completely unknown. Plus, this coat may not show sooty like the others, just differently. Very pretty though.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4042342 -Another early one. Just an unknown.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4042612 -Another early one, but this one looks like the sooty may already be starting to appear, but only just. The coat looks off, so I don't know for certain.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4042656 -Another early. This horse also has dun, so don't let that subtle expression make you think something else.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4044050 -Early. This one has dun, but also appears to have sooty. Just too early to tell though.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4044087 -This one is another early one, but with a unique coat. It's kind of... speckled. Not from gray and doesn't appear to have Lp in the line. I'd suggest it's a dun characteristic, but it's unusual. I have no clue about this one. Be interesting to see if this one changes or keeps these speckles. Maybe... just an artifact from dun...??

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4044828 -This one's way to early yet.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4047010 -And another.

Oh, and that's the end. The funny thing is, on the pasture overview, I could've sworn some of them looked like they already were dappling. Those were (and still are) Arbor Day (to a very gentle extent), Raindance (again barely legible), Raindance II, and Lucky Day. But closer examination reveals something a bit differently.

Don't know what to take from that.

Also, you should be able to tell when most of your herd starts to sooty. If you take note of it, for instance, they all start at 4 years, then any older than that, you can cull. This will also add a benefit of favoring earlier sooty-ers. You should theoretically push the genes to show sooty and maybe also dapples, far earlier, well into their second year or even as yearlings. Taking note of when sooty shows up and when the dapples show up, will help guide you which horses you'll want to save.

[Meanwhile]

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Thanks for the insights so far! And yeah, I know the majority of that pasture are still too early to show. Figured it was easier to link to the whole pasture in case there were signs I was missing, or if there happened to be any insight on those brown/dun guys (because yeah, one does look weird, doesn't it??)

For the most part, I've been able to spot the less-subtle dappling once they're around 4-5, since most of them have fast-sootying parents. But, I know when there are those that are less sooty or have subtle dapples, I've been bad about knowing what specifically to look for. So, that's why I'm getting stuck on the ones in this pasture that I should have been able to tell for sure or not by now. (The definite ones have already either been getting moved out of that pasture or culled.)

This is an example of the things I've been looking at to try and figure out how to "see" subtle dapple: Link

I've also been trying to learn how to spot super-subtle dapple so that I can spot it in the AC. So far I thiiiink I've successfully spotted one? Maybe you can tell me if you agree: Haha...

[BlackOak2]

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I can agree that Liar's Ruby is a subtle. But the other, I would probably think that one is not a dapple. That said, I don't have an eye trained recently in dapples (always helps when you're working with it... up to the point of seeing it everywhere, like it happens with dun... start seeing it everywhere and thinking that ALL the horses have it... -_- ...).
So there has to be a point to take a short break and return to it with some fresh eyes.

It is much, much easier seeing the dapples on single creams. It becomes really obvious on buckskins and palominos... less so on double dilutes (cremellos, for instance). It's also easy to see if you work with double pearls...

Where are mine...
***
As a couple examples:





So if you work with dilutes, it may be much easier to find the dapples. But entirely your decision.

I could suggest that as long as you're getting something from your herd to continue the generations, then just cull harder with the ones that are simply too difficult to tell, or don't show up when you want. It may mean your generations might become inbred or it might also mean you have very few for each generation... but in this second case, just put some decent producers in freeze, just in case... but it should help in later generations to find what you're looking for.

Remember. It's okay to give up on some horses from time to time.

[Meanwhile]

It's okay to give up on some horses from time to time.

Haha, wiser words (and harder words to actually follow) have never been spoken. Thanks for the rest of the insight as well! Even just seeing your subtle dapple examples helps.

Also, since you mentioned cream + dapple, I do have some from the Turk half of the line, and I wanted to show off my only double cream while I'm at it, because she also happened to inherit dapples and I think she's just so pretty. I'm looking forward to watching how her dapples progress over time. I've been thinking of adding her to that "Favorite Horses" thread of yours.

[BlackOak2]

It's okay to give up on some horses from time to time.

Haha, wiser words (and harder words to actually follow) have never been spoken. Thanks for the rest of the insight as well! Even just seeing your subtle dapple examples helps.

Also, since you mentioned cream + dapple, I do have some from the Turk half of the line, and I wanted to show off my only double cream while I'm at it, because she also happened to inherit dapples and I think she's just so pretty. I'm looking forward to watching how her dapples progress over time. I've been thinking of adding her to that "Favorite Horses" thread of yours.

Yup! That's what that thread is for!!

She did come out nice. Very neat how dapples are only showing along her dorsal areas. Gorgeous from the top down.

You may also get some different expressions if you bring in other areas of sooty. Forest has full-body. If you were to find one of those pseudo-blacks (either chestnut or brown), it should give you max-sooty. But the dapples can be just as barely visible. Finding those brilliantly strong dapples seems to be really difficult... So the genes for that may be a second set of dappling genes, instead of a buildable type (keep putting more in the 'cup' of the dapples). It's still a bit of a mystery, how exactly the gene works and how to get certain types.

[Meanwhile]

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Yeah! That's actually one of the reasons I have so many dapples hanging around. I found some Forests that had different "shapes" of sooty to see how dapples play with them. Whichever ones I like the most, I'll end up carrying forward. I'm hoping to have a few different strains by the end of it.

My sooty progens: Here

Right now I've got top-down sooty, legs-up sooty, and rump-forward sooty. Recently added a couple full-body sooty forests to the mix for good measure, too.

As far as dapples being brighter, I'm hoping to start seeing if breeding dapple-to-dapple does indeed do the "filling up the cup" style increase, or if I'm going to have to dig around for a separate gene to add in. Luckily, having super-stark dapples isn't exactly my end-goal, so it's okay if I don't get to that point.

[BlackOak2]

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Ah! That is a nice mix!
The sooty gene is such a really nice gene. ^.^

So in-depth, these genes on HWO are. Kudos to admin for creating such a game. Really leaves me (well most of us, I suppose) in awe.

If you need to try to hash something out, feel free to scrape my brain from time to time. I have notes, but most of it is already published on the game already. That doesn't include, however, my odds-and-ends thoughts that I've come across while playing. Sometimes something sparks a memory in me and it's useful.

*Looking forward to your work.*
Good luck!

Oh, there is also a half-and-half sooty too. Front half versus back half, it's really prominent, but I've only ever seen it a couple times, so it's likely a hidden gene somewhere. Tends to come out a little more often in Lp horses, so it might be hidden in shetie's or
...???
I'm not sure, actually.

But the particular horse I'm recalling, is in the Favorites thread somewhere. I made sure to link it there (or somebody did).
A bit like Blessed Day, but really very prominent.
Eh...

[Meanwhile]

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Haa thanks so much! Yeah, I'm sure I'll be bothering you again soon, as I'm already finding little "mini-genes" to get distracted by while working on my actual projects. Some really pretty pale horses keep popping up in my Prze guys, which seem like they get even more-so when Belgian is added in. Probably has to do with some particular expression of pangare that they have, but I keep wanting to play more with it... and it looks even cooler when plume is added in...

And then there is this red-based-mane that you see with Przes, but I've seen a more extreme version pop up every once in a while, so I kind of want to poke at that too and see if it gets brighter when compounded on itself like plume does...

So many genes, so little time.

(Oh, also, if you ever happen to run across any of those half-and-half or other interesting sooty patterns on horses that are up for stud, let me know, and I'll throw my dapples at them to see what happens, haha.)

[BlackOak2]

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Belgians have really strong pangare, but it's a hard-line, while Prze have a whole body. So it doesn't surprise me that you're getting paler horses with that mix. (I recently finished a pangare study, has some interesting notations)

Each of our base colors has a range of occurrence from rather dark to rather light. Sooty then works on top of that. So you can have a dark bay horse not affected by sooty and a bright bay, not affected by sooty and the coats are really, very far apart. Only one we can't see differences in base coats (without another modifier) is black. Because a black horse is simply black. Which also means, if the horse isn't BLACK, black, then there has to be a modifier working on it (that would be dun, aside from metallic).

The nice thing is that the base color can be selectively bred for. So if you want bright bays in your prze line, to give you brighter mane-lines, then breeding for it should bring it out.

I haven't seen any unusual sooty colors in the stud market recently, but I haven't also been looking. Should I see one of interest, I'll ping you.