Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

[Gaagii]

So been a while since I updated this. Haven't been on for a while.

Can't remember if I covered this version - mane & fetlocks, no real plume to the tail



And an odd male with a short tail.

Love all the work you've put into studying this color. Now you're making me want to breed plume horses, as if I don't have enough projects as is lol. Did you ever get any brown or wild bay plume?

I've gotten wild bays. No black or browns so far. Chestnut is an oddity as sometimes a "flaxen chestnut" will pop up but it doesn't seem related to regular chestnut (as chestnut crossed into plume doesn't show anything).

[Gaagii]

Going through what I've posted so far & reviewing some other horses I think this "plume" gene is tied, if it hasn't been mentioned before, in some way with agouti (good genetic summary https://www.deviantart.com/kassousminou ... -417917009)

Bay = black base + agouti. Plume shows on bays
Black = black base / agouti. Plume doesn't show on blacks.
Chestnut = red base + supposedly agouti versions irl = varied darkness of chestnut (light vs liver). A "flaxen" plume-related chestnut shows
Seal/Brown = black base + agouti type irl. Not tested in the game currently.
https://www.horse-genetics.com/horse-co ... etics.html


The idea comes from this horse here:


His Sire
Dame

If heterozygous (Aa) agouti in two bay horses, in real life, there's a 25% chance of a black foal.
https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/CCalculator1.asp
As you can see in the image above 2 of the 3 chestnut potentials (ee) have agouti (Aa/AA). The black is represented by E/EE with no agouti (aa) & everything else is bay.

Here is one of those "flaxen" chestnuts by a adoption center horse that indicated plume & a bred/proven plume mare.

There's another reason why I considered agouti & that's the black boy's foals.

Foal #1


Dame



Foal #2


Dame (not the best pic)



Foal #3


Dame (no plume)



Foal #4


Dame



A heterozygous (Aa) agouti bay bred to a black horse has a near 50/50 chance of a black foal or a bay foal



There was suggestion of silver if I remember correctly but it can't be silver as these "flaxen" chestnuts wouldn't exist

As seen here (silver bay/bay cross) there is solely chestnut because silver changes black (mane/tail) and chestnut doesn't have black. On the reverse, it can't be flaxen because flaxen doesn't change black it changes red.



So right now I'd say it's an oddity to agouti. But right now I am gonna be cutting back on horses aiming for high-intensity plumes again.

[BlackOak2]

I haven't had much chance to breed or differences between foals being born from my competition line with the plume gene attached.
But I'm still keeping notes.

I do find it funny that it affects the black mane and tails by brushing them with a silver frosting, but it doesn't do so in black coats at all (or doesn't appear to).

If directly linked to the agouti gene, it may be a good tell for our chestnuts hiding agouti.

So the black boy above is a carrier of the plume?
He can throw it around with both plume and non-plume mares but does not express it himself?

If that's the case, then that certainly is a strong theory for it being directly attached to agouti and as such can remain hidden in an all-black bloodline for generations until introduced to an agouti chestnut or an agouti bay, brown, wild bay.

[Gaagii]

I haven't had much chance to breed or differences between foals being born from my competition line with the plume gene attached.
But I'm still keeping notes.

I do find it funny that it affects the black mane and tails by brushing them with a silver frosting, but it doesn't do so in black coats at all (or doesn't appear to).

If directly linked to the agouti gene, it may be a good tell for our chestnuts hiding agouti.

So the black boy above is a carrier of the plume?
He can throw it around with both plume and non-plume mares but does not express it himself?

If that's the case, then that certainly is a strong theory for it being directly attached to agouti and as such can remain hidden in an all-black bloodline for generations until introduced to an agouti chestnut or an agouti bay, brown, wild bay.

Yeah, the black guy's a plume carrier but he doesn't seem to 'throw it' with non-plume mares. Foal 3 (the black one)'s mare has no visible plume as she's of a non-plume background. Interestingly Foal #3 later bred to a nicely marked plume mare gave me a solid chestnut colt.

[BlackOak2]

Yeah, the black guy's a plume carrier but he doesn't seem to 'throw it' with non-plume mares. Foal 3 (the black one)'s mare has no visible plume as she's of a non-plume background. Interestingly Foal #3 later bred to a nicely marked plume mare gave me a solid chestnut colt.

That would certainly offer that the plume is indeed recessive and that the colt only had one gene. But that also the sire only carries one.

I suppose it's certainly possible to have a gene that's recessive, linked to another gene (in this cause agouti) and is also build-able.

But, yeash, does that make it hard to work with!

By the way, that short-tailed male you posted... So Stinkin' Cute!
Brilliant frosting on him.

[Gaagii]

Yeah, the black guy's a plume carrier but he doesn't seem to 'throw it' with non-plume mares. Foal 3 (the black one)'s mare has no visible plume as she's of a non-plume background. Interestingly Foal #3 later bred to a nicely marked plume mare gave me a solid chestnut colt.

That would certainly offer that the plume is indeed recessive and that the colt only had one gene. But that also the sire only carries one.

I suppose it's certainly possible to have a gene that's recessive, linked to another gene (in this cause agouti) and is also build-able.

But, yeash, does that make it hard to work with!

I'm positive plume is recessive as any outcrossing to non-plumes gives almost 100% non-plume (there's a rare occasion when I've found an adoption center horse that looks like it may have plume = plume) foals.

Well yeah it's interesting to work with. But if agouti related that may make it simpler. What I need is to try with verified brown as per irl brown is an agouti type of color.

By the way, that short-tailed male you posted... So Stinkin' Cute!
Brilliant frosting on him.

Thanks.

[BlackOak2]

That would certainly offer that the plume is indeed recessive and that the colt only had one gene. But that also the sire only carries one.

I suppose it's certainly possible to have a gene that's recessive, linked to another gene (in this cause agouti) and is also build-able.

But, yeash, does that make it hard to work with!

I'm positive plume is recessive as any outcrossing to non-plumes gives almost 100% non-plume (there's a rare occasion when I've found an adoption center horse that looks like it may have plume = plume) foals.

Well yeah it's interesting to work with. But if agouti related that may make it simpler. What I need is to try with verified brown as per irl brown is an agouti type of color.

By the way, that short-tailed male you posted... So Stinkin' Cute!
Brilliant frosting on him.

Thanks.

I'd certainly like to help you with the browns... I have agouti in almost all of my competition line... but it's a mixture of agouti among chestnuts, blacks and also dilution genes. They're a mess for color projects.

But I did find this guy at stud; he's an Ee (one chestnut foal, I think) and 3 brown foals, so there's a chance he's a double brown.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/296

And this one at stud; he comes down from two AC bays... so he's either single brown or double. No apparent reds in his offspring and no blacks that I see either.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1982

Then there's this one for sale that's down from a brown and buckskin. From what I see, it appears he's likely E/e, but might be a double brown as well. No foals.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1264933

I don't know if that's any help though.

[Gaagii]

I'm positive plume is recessive as any outcrossing to non-plumes gives almost 100% non-plume (there's a rare occasion when I've found an adoption center horse that looks like it may have plume = plume) foals.

Well yeah it's interesting to work with. But if agouti related that may make it simpler. What I need is to try with verified brown as per irl brown is an agouti type of color.




Thanks.

I'd certainly like to help you with the browns... I have agouti in almost all of my competition line... but it's a mixture of agouti among chestnuts, blacks and also dilution genes. They're a mess for color projects.

But I did find this guy at stud; he's an Ee (one chestnut foal, I think) and 3 brown foals, so there's a chance he's a double brown.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/296

And this one at stud; he comes down from two AC bays... so he's either single brown or double. No apparent reds in his offspring and no blacks that I see either.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1982

Then there's this one for sale that's down from a brown and buckskin. From what I see, it appears he's likely E/e, but might be a double brown as well. No foals.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1264933

I don't know if that's any help though.

Thanks

And that's quite alright about your own horses, the ones you linked I'll buy/use. I'm probably gonna breed some myself in a bit - gotta clear some room - anyway. I just keep putting it off lol.

[BlackOak2]

Thanks

And that's quite alright about your own horses, the ones you linked I'll buy/use. I'm probably gonna breed some myself in a bit - gotta clear some room - anyway. I just keep putting it off lol.

Room... it's always the room!
But if there wasn't a limit... it'd take me literally, DAYS to get through each turn. I'd have way too many projects running.
I like breeding the horses... it's fun to see the generations evolve.

AC Forest horses usually have a lot of browns and no hidden dilution genes, except for that dun and pangare. So in a pinch, it's safe enough to use them.

And caspians are easy for empty genes too. If you can find a black one, you don't need to worry about agouti mixed in or anything else but dun. So at least it gives you a fairly blank canvas to work with.

But you know all that already.

[Gaagii]

Thanks

And that's quite alright about your own horses, the ones you linked I'll buy/use. I'm probably gonna breed some myself in a bit - gotta clear some room - anyway. I just keep putting it off lol.

Room... it's always the room!
But if there wasn't a limit... it'd take me literally, DAYS to get through each turn. I'd have way too many projects running.
I like breeding the horses... it's fun to see the generations evolve.

AC Forest horses usually have a lot of browns and no hidden dilution genes, except for that dun and pangare. So in a pinch, it's safe enough to use them.

And caspians are easy for empty genes too. If you can find a black one, you don't need to worry about agouti mixed in or anything else but dun. So at least it gives you a fairly blank canvas to work with.

But you know all that already.

Yep. Room & time. Ah jeez... But this game's fantastic for the breeding/genes compared to some.

And yeah know about the adoption centers - thanks a bunch for the advice still - it's why I use them mostly.