Searching For Stallion, Very Strong WPS, Tb, Tb mix or Grade

[BlackOak2]

I have a fine stallion of the Russian trotting breed, with the blood of thoroughbred horses. His WPS was equal to 100%, but it dropped to 93.5% because I released the main stallion into the competition, which ruined the statistics. You can find it in the TOP of the breed Russian Trotter. He has excellent results and a unique suit.
ᴿᵀᴳ Conspiracy

Yes, I know that he is not a thoroughbred, however, this is a beautiful stallion, and I am ready to share with you his skills.

First off, he's an absolutely gorgeous snowflake! Great color too.
His very light style and long back length are a problem, but with that WPS, both are considerably less for flaws than usual. COI (84.6%) isn't a big problem either. High, but not out-of-range. Appears he's a nominally private, outbreed line. You have him stacked on both sides.
Second, I suppose I should congratulate you on him and the work you put in. Congraulations! I think your's is one of the one's my own has been loosing against. And consistently too.

His progeny and descendants would not be eligible to anybody until I get them back to pureblood, so there will be I think 7 generations at least until that time. That will also allow me a chance to correct the body style and back length.

If you're willing to sell him, I am interested in obtaining him. But... considering what I see, I'm hesitant to offer, because I understand it will be at least in the million's area and I certainly don't want to insult your work by low-balling. So if my terms listed in the first post are acceptable, namely the fact that his descendants (once bred back to pureblood) won't be private, I'm willing to attempt a negotiation for him.

I'd also like to hear any terms you might have as well.

[Sawd10]

Tackle this one at a time.

I cannot promise these lines will be kept private. They'll be used for the club and by the club, but club horses can and are sold to public (at a minimum of... I forget! Let me check the club page...

Approved Homes will receive a discounted price of your stock but will NOT be less then $100,000 base price.
Non-Approved Homes will NOT receive a discounted price of your stock. Base price will start at $500,000.

that is public sales, not club sales. Club sales are anywhere from gift to no-top-end). So you should consider your lines will be made public at some point in some number of generations.

So I could make some promises, depending on the horse and the request.
I'll be looking for awhile, I expect to have a slow turnover (I want to age out the studs at some point for new blood), so I'll be constantly on the hunt. And I'm fine with different colors, as long as I try to stay away from the primaries I've already named. It just makes it more difficult to identify them and as for gray, people aren't exactly fond of that color too much.

I'll also take this step by step ahah.

That's fair, it's a breeding community, so I understand perfectly well. I think that we could possibly do a 2 gen or so wait until selling to the public &/or members... and when you do so with the public, I'm perfectly fine with the pricing with my lines incorporated. It's a good amount for so. And as for club sales, I again understand. It's a club and therefore your not supposed to be driving other members broke on stock .
That sounds fine with me. It takes a while to test so many possible competitors, so I'll come back at you with more when I have 'em. I shouldn't expect greatly from each and every one of them, of course. I wouldn't be testing them if I didn't have a reason, and now that I do have one, would you like me to test them at least 20 times in Racing, Sprint Racing, Steeplechasing, and Harness Racing so you could getting a more defined, clear view of each of them?

I'm about the same with colours. As long as it's not something I have a lot of or very dominant I can work with it, which is why I happen to have Champagne in my lines. I was able to breed more diversity in without me having only Champagnes.

That's fine with me, I don't like over breeding the studs either. It brings too much of the lines in, and while you may like the stud... I think you'll blame it later. And I probably wouldn't let you over breed my studs anyway. However, because you are a hard culler (or at least you claim yourself to be ) spreading the genes around I think we have something possible we could work out. Understandable.

As for the lines, I already explained above. 2 generations before releasing could work with the pures considering the prices you sell them for to the public because it works out nicely with the quality of my lines and around the price I'd sell them for. But like you said, mixes could possibly work out better for the both of us. I get the private lines wait I wanted and you get the lines. Your choice, though. I'd be able to work something out either way.
Continuing on...

...

All things considered in what you explained you'd do otherwise with the foals was expected. And if you breed pures to my pures then yes, I'd have you close off the first and second foals closed off. Everything else is quite all right in my eyes.

*******************

Purchases were also expected from a mass-breeder looking to improve club lines, no problem. Some of the future tested Thoroughbreds or other racers could possibly be for sale, as well. Possibly.
I do come on daily, so if you are interested in obtaining offspring from those I'm willing to stud (not sell) I could easily put the stud up for you whenever you need to breed to him. *shrugs*

I knew you'd like Northern Lights, also because I know you like FameDaLupa lines . But I also knew you'd turn him down, and for good reason.

As for Dom, he's currently (just like you guessed) not for sale. I like his lineup a lot, and that's why I had originally offered him to you because of his lineage. I could outcross him if you ever need it. And.. I never studded him out to public, I went on two devices and put him up from my side to use the last of his energy. I didn't take him down just so I could show him off. Hehe.
And for Dark Angel, I had a feeling. He's just some horse that happened to have heart- he doesn't have all that much stat and conformation-wise to offer. Chollima is going to stay with me as I'm working on getting those times on my mowhawked racers under 2:00.

Spring Rosebud is actually for sale. Although his times are very nice I don't like leopard and am not interested in having it in my lines, so I don't have too much of a use for him. I'd sell him to you if you are interested, or I could stud him, if you like that. And of course he is in Jewels' RH lines, if not directly. I checked that when I first got him, though I don't know if I'm telling you wrong or not.

Hah, I forgot Malevolence went back. Haven't checked on him in long time it feels like. As for the unnamed one, he's not been tested and I'm not sure how good he'd produce, like you explained. He was selectively put into the sales barn because I wasn't sure if I wanted him, but I might test him one day. I've never sold him and I've had him for a while so... maybe he could do alright. Maybe.

Northern Lights is in the middle. I'd possible stud him, I'd possibly sell him. Just let me know. It's the same reason as Spring Rosebud's. I don't like or want leopard in my Thoroughbred lines.

Another somewhat long post.

[BlackOak2]

...:

We do have long conversations.
It's good to have everything pounded out before the deal goes down.

I'm thinking, I do have a good out-cross mare for Dom right now. At least one. So, maybe that cross would work. But let me consider how to work this and consider the potential sales again. I'm signing off here shortly so I'll need to get back to you on that. However, I do want to show you the mare that just popped into my head for a match to Dom. Though I haven't otherwise matched them up yet, I'm thinking at the moment, solely about both of their stacked bloodlines and haven't considered anything further. For all I know, they're related! But I doubt that... at least, I don't think so...




By the way, I'm in and out right now, so it might take me a day or two to get back to you.

And, I don't think her breeder would have any issues with such a cross. I think you'll get that when you look at it.

[Sawd10]

...:

We do have long conversations.
It's good to have everything pounded out before the deal goes down.

I'm thinking, I do have a good out-cross mare for Dom right now. At least one. So, maybe that cross would work. But let me consider how to work this and consider the potential sales again. I'm signing off here shortly so I'll need to get back to you on that. However, I do want to show you the mare that just popped into my head for a match to Dom. Though I haven't otherwise matched them up yet, I'm thinking at the moment, solely about both of their stacked bloodlines and haven't considered anything further. For all I know, they're related! But I doubt that... at least, I don't think so...


By the way, I'm in and out right now, so it might take me a day or two to get back to you.

And, I don't think her breeder would have any issues with such a cross. I think you'll get that when you look at it.

Agreed.

Mmm, yes, Retsi. I think we'll be all right.

Dom hasn't ever been studded out, but I think to a horse from Retsi's bloodline it's a good matchup. You can take a look at the bloodlines, though I don't think they're related... I don't think. I want to say I haven't used FameDaLupa's where he comes from (but I could be wrong), and I haven't used any of Retsi's there, either.
Get back to me when you can about the potential sales and out-crossing to studs. I'll be here whenever . And, go ahead and let me know if you find any other potential mares you'd possibly use- otherwise, Black Belle is noted.

[BlackOak2]

...:

Let me consider Spring Rosebud for awhile. I'm adverse to those Jewel's lines, but that stallion does offer quite a bit of interest.

And now that I have a little extra time today, I'll finish answering the questions I completely left out before.
For testing. Although showing heart in the four competition types the club handles is great, I'm not selectively looking for just those specific areas. I'm just generally looking for a really strong heart. A generalized heart would be great (high WPS over multiple competition types). So if there's a horse that does rather very ugly in sprints, for instance, but shows outstanding excellence in poles and cross country, that's still an interesting possible purchase.
And since the club standard is shifted toward the medium build, rather than super lights, that expands the area of potential coverage. So as long as the horse shows an overwhelming heart in something and has Tb or grade blood, I'm interested in looking over it.
20 competitions is minimum for seeing the heart-value, at least in my book. And they can't all be low levels... with the exception of a low HGP horse. It's the heart I'm after, not necessarily the stats.

So, it usually goes something like (nominally by body style):
(racing body) not good at racing style --> try fast westerns or fast english
(medium body) not good at westerns --> try eventing or driving
(medium-heavy body) not good at driving --> try fast westerns or 'slow' english

As for hard culling... I don't have many reject foals currently (2 as I type this), but I just started a new batch of broods. So you can look for yourself of the rejects that build up in my reject pastures.
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/pasture/48376
As it now stands, I only have one or two club members requesting a reject foal. So maybe 1 in 50 might get picked up for their club lines. And the two rejects that I currently have are a bit on the low side of average of the foals that get culled. Both of them are outcross foals.

If you feel better for it, breeding a mix or a grade would be fine. Two generations is workable, but if you don't like that option, then making a 50/50 would mean 4 generations. I think we're both at that stage of, 'whatever works for you'. We'll work on it from a horse-by-horse basis then.

Don't mass-entry just any horse. I am interested in pretty much 'any' horse, but you know your lines best, so the ones you think might, sure, but those you think will fail... then don't bother.

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Dom and Belle are pretty evenly matched. Should be a good crossover, may produce a very light (she's a very light...) but should avoid the tobiano he has in his line.
So I think, when I'm ready, that match should prove successful. Would you like a foal from the pairing? If they produce well, I'm more than willing to cross for a match for you.

Currently, I have no club line mares that are adequate to cross-out. They're producing fine, but not of the caliber that I want to risk outcrossing with the current batch.
I do have two other mares waiting for use in the club lines though.
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/2442551 - FameDaLupa bred, though for some reason, I suspect she'll be a difficult one. I acquired her for her pedigree and her sire is a stud I used for beginning the club lines. She can be considered a line-bred near Black Belle's sire line.
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/2820124 - Opal_and_Voidy bred. I really like the overall stats on this mare. She's really a quite nice progeny by Marmalade, better than the other one's I've seen him produce, I think (overall anyway). Not top notch, but overall. However, I have no clue how she'll throw and she might not be a good match for Dom. She might be a better match to cross to Northern Lights.

Speaking of Northern Lights, let me consider his purchase too. I am partial to that FameDaLupa stock!

I think that's the bulk of what I had to finish up saying yesterday.

[Sawd10]

...

Take as long as you need. I'm not stuck on Northern Lights or Spring Rosebud, so I don't suppose I'd be asking too much from you haha.

For testing. I'll do so. Most of mine are either very light or light as I don't really breed heavier Thoroughbreds. That's because I breed them for racing, like most, so I don't want that medium or heavier.
So then you (Leopard Thoroughbred Breeding) are just looking, in particular, for a stallion that has heart? Whether that be in Racing competitions or any other discipline. I'll keep that in mind with the Thoroughbreds or Thoroughbred mixes I test and get back to you.
Does it often happen that the horses in the breeding association are overbred or are bred to others with the same lines? That was my first thought when I had originally read this post. I thought you were looking to get that WPS higher and get that pedigree lower.

Culling noted.

yes, I'd say so. Just work on it mare by mare and tell me your interests in pairing and we can work the terms and prices out then.
Yes, I'm only entering those I was originally going to compete in the first place. I wouldn't ruin my horses just to try and... ugh, help you. (<--- yes, my jokes happen to be dry, so now you have something to actually laugh at )

As for Dom & Belle, I can refill his energy whenever you are ready and we can figure out the pricing. I may or may not be interested in a foal, depends on the outcome. I'm usually quite picky with Thoroughbred foals. But maybe having new lines will be a good thing since I often keep to myself when it comes to it... we shall see.

Moving on to those two mares.. starting with Masterpiece's Daughter. I checked her, and like you had said, she'll be difficult. She's got COI definitely on the higher side, and she's very light. She also happens to be another one from FameDaLupa's lines, so I think that if you cross her with Dom Perignon she'll produce foals to closely bred to Belle's outcome. And also not to mention that she is a Classic Champagne, and you mentioned that you weren't interested in Champagne, and I don't blame you.
That said, both Dom's parents also happened to produce offspring that were very light.. and generally you want a light type for Racing competitions. I think that (if I remember) Dom may have produced one or two very lights, so I think all things considered Dom wouldn't work with her.
I'd say that Northern Lights and her and too closely related, because they are both from direct FameDaLupa lines, and not to mention that Northern Lights has 91.7% COI. He's also got the Champagne gene, which might not be what you want.
Spring Rosebud could POSSIBLY be the best match out of the three for her, though even then I'm not quite sure how well he'd do. He does have intermittent heart, but we already discussed that. He has the highest COI of them all- 101.31%, and he doesn't come quite so directly from FameDaLupa. His sire's sire is a FameDaLupa stallion, so now that I look at it he's quite directly. He's produced some very lights, so that could be a problem. On the bright side, he's got none of that Champagne ahah.
But he is quite inbred. His mother, Flamboyant Yankee Fair (whatever that means- kinda scary), was sired by Flamboyant Sugar, who's father is Spring Rosebud's father, Fair Justice. And there's some Wild Ruffian every so often, too. So maybe, after it all, she wouldn't do well paired up with any of them. But tell me your thoughts on it, I could be wrong about what you want.

Yes, I don't think the Opal_And_Voidy mare would do well paired up with Dom, and I can see why. I think you'd be right to suggest a pair up of Northern Lights and her. They are close related (I think), but otherwise I think they'd produce well.

...

We can move into the sales of Northern Lights & Spring Rosebud when your ready to do so.

I have a new tested one, he's an interesting prospect.

$ℱ~ Thunderhead


Yes, another tobiano. No solids for you, Oak!
Buckskin tobiano, not sure if the cream gene interests you. He is light, and he does have a good height, right on 16.00hh. He's had 120 starts, 67 of them in which he placed first, which I know is what you like. I think his fastest is 2:00.78, which is fairly slow considering how fast the Thoroughbreds race now, but still above average. He's still got above 97% WPS so he obviously places well. His COI is the lowest yet- 40.87%. I believe he's pretty much only from my lines, but considering how low his COI is, I think that there's probably some out-breeding somewhere.

So then, that clears that message.

[BlackOak2]

So then, that clears that message.

He is quite nice, but goes back to club lines along the sire's side. Eight generations back is an actual branded stallion.

Yup! That's just what I'm looking for, one that shows heart and is either grade or Tb, in any discipline. Many of the current public lines right now do, in fact, have club lines in them, somewhere. There's a couple stallions that were made public, specifically because of their patterned coat, that were used. Only the private, semi-private and new lines may not have been outbred to them.
I am overall concerned with COI, but in a different manner than one might think. High COI doesn't outbred well sometimes. They either do and it's fine, or they don't and it's messy. Low COI doesn't have such a narrow or constricted outbreeding issue (usually). So because I'm producing Foundation stock for new members and club usage, I need to do my best to maintain a COI that won't suffer from outbreeding issues. However... I'm currently maintaining a bloodline that does outbreed well enough. I just need to keep it there.

I get dry humor, I have a ... touch of that myself. And sometimes, that's the best thing to lighten the mood.

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Broods
Funny though, the thought hit my mind, that many of us are actually describing and breeding these horses like they would be in real life and that the outcomes are about what we'd expect, just like real life. Does that mean we're getting into that 'expert' or 'experienced' breeder arena? Notwithstanding that it's a game.
Just crossed my mind.
I'm resigned to some champagne, but it's easy enough to breed out if everything else is there. That's why I marked it as a negative and not a direct refusal. It's a use, if I kind of like a horse, but also kind of don't, such an option like champagne can tilt me onto one side or the other of that fence.
I suppose Masterpiece's Daughter will have to await another match then. She's a reintroduction after all and I suspected she'd be difficult anyway, so she can wait in the wings until I'm happier with a match. In fact, I'm not happy with trying her to my current top club studs either. So... She can wait.
I like to hear others thoughts as well, to see if we see the same things or not.
But it does sound like we're on the same page for this mare and though I agree that Northern Lights might be the best option, he's just too closely related. And I'm not particularly fond of a crossing with her and Spring Rosebud... but wasn't too sure why. I'll sum it up to that COI and leave it there.

And again, we're of similar mindsets on the second mare as well. I think she and Norther Lights might do well together.

*****
Oh, I can work with cream genes, I'm just not fond of them (for the same reasons as the champagne). Single creams are manageable, I've bred out most of them from my herd already. Double creams (unless the horse is exceptional) are a no-go and as far as triple dilutes, those are very simple 'Outs', regardless of WPS.

[Sawd10]

*****

Sorry for the reasonably late reply. I had a pretty busy week and hadn't the time to check.



So then, Thunderhead being a no, I do happen to have another one.

Harness Racer

On first look, I bet you were thinking exactly what I thought: his colouring is much too dominant. Yep. It is. But like every other stud I linked, he's just an idea- and your preferences and definitions of "good enough" are likely different then mine for this project.
His current fastest time is 02:37.94 minutes, proof is here. He might be good at other disciplines, not Racing.

___

Yes, are we getting too carried away with this game?!

Colouring preferences noted, and thus I shall move on. Perhaps Masterpiece's Daughter will be paired in the future, but for now, let's put her aside.
There isn't too much more to speak about in this area since it was, for the most part, explained in past posts, I presume.

Are you interested in breeding to them now? I can age those needed to breeding age and we can work out a price, unless you're thinking otherwise?

[BlackOak2]

*****

Sorry for the reasonably late reply. I had a pretty busy week and hadn't the time to check.



So then, Thunderhead being a no, I do happen to have another one.

On first look, I bet you were thinking exactly what I thought: his colouring is much too dominant. Yep. It is. But like every other stud I linked, he's just an idea- and your preferences and definitions of "good enough" are likely different then mine for this project.
His current fastest time is 02:37.94 minutes, proof is here. He might be good at other disciplines, not Racing.

___

Yes, are we getting too carried away with this game?!

Colouring preferences noted, and thus I shall move on. Perhaps Masterpiece's Daughter will be paired in the future, but for now, let's put her aside.
There isn't too much more to speak about in this area since it was, for the most part, explained in past posts, I presume.

Are you interested in breeding to them now? I can age those needed to breeding age and we can work out a price, unless you're thinking otherwise?

The harness racer is alright, on-paper, he's prime for the club. But I'm not too keen that he has more seconds than firsts. Unusual lineup. I'd like to hunt down and breed in the 'favoring first placement' style. So I think I'll pass on him.
... hmmm...
Maybe!

Let's give this first pairing a try, since we're both currently online and see what Black Belle and Dom produce. I'll have the mare put up and you can breed her on your account, then send her forth to me.

A mil stud fee? More? Less? I think they'll pop an acceptable foal and if so, that would likely be the least this matching should be, you think? On open market?

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/2555531

[BlackOak2]

...

The next foal popped
Another colt... oh well. Not too bad, not too great. Overall acceptable, so I'm going to give him a go on the circuit.



It is funny how all three of these foals were champagnes. It does prove that she's a decent broodmare too. She crossed well.