Lp Experiment - AC Horse Edition

[Totina]

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My guess is that most people don't dedicate this much time/effort to test what AC horses might carry what. Then again, the PATN1 gene could be as rare as 1% of horses that spawn of a certain breed in the AC are carriers of it. But if it would be that low, then I would not count out any AC breed just yet since there is a 99% chance of not getting a PATN1 gene carrier when adopting a horse or using a random stallion that is up for public stud.

Everything you've said is true. However, of the people that were experimenting and posting their findings on the forum (especially back when Lp was first released) all of the experiments were with Belgians, Caspians, Shetlands, and - to a lesser degree - Forest Horses. So after what I've seen with my initial results - a little bit more coverage with the aforementioned breeds but really things staying mostly consistent - it makes sense to me to experiment with some of the less-looked-at breeds.

I've also been looking through some pedigrees and have found a lot of Quarter Horse blood in non-red horses with white (and in places in the pedigree that seem to be the origin of the extra white). Quarter Horses also have these same five breeds as their ancient ancestors.

I'm not saying that these five for sure have anything. I'm just saying that it makes sense to look.

Of course, it makes sense to look into every option available, but I suspect it would take more than just a handfull or two of randomly selected AC horses. Perhaps, if we're unlucky, we need to try 100 or more different AC horses before we find the PATN1 gene. We would at least need to try 10+ individual horses from each breed but most likely more than that if the PATN1 gene is extremely rare.

[Silverine]

Of course, it makes sense to look into every option available, but I suspect it would take more than just a handfull or two of randomly selected AC horses. Perhaps, if we're unlucky, we need to try 100 or more different AC horses before we find the PATN1 gene. We would at least need to try 10+ individual horses from each breed but most likely more than that if the PATN1 gene is extremely rare.

I agree. I'm not expecting it to be quick - but concentrating in one are allows me to decide whether or not to continue with it faster than rotating as I was doing. (And as far as randomly selected - do you have some method for selecting? Right now my rules are not red-based if at all possible and long tail because my horses tend toward short ones. )

[Totina]

Of course, it makes sense to look into every option available, but I suspect it would take more than just a handfull or two of randomly selected AC horses. Perhaps, if we're unlucky, we need to try 100 or more different AC horses before we find the PATN1 gene. We would at least need to try 10+ individual horses from each breed but most likely more than that if the PATN1 gene is extremely rare.

I agree. I'm not expecting it to be quick - but concentrating in one are allows me to decide whether or not to continue with it faster than rotating as I was doing. (And as far as randomly selected - do you have some method for selecting? Right now my rules are not red-based if at all possible and long tail because my horses tend toward short ones. )

I would not limit myself to only black-based horses since the PATN1 gene should show itself on a chestnut base as well. What I would be looking at though is if the foal ends up with white in areas that we know are the problem areas (under the head up behind the eye, frontside of the neck etc). If the foal has white in one or more of these areas it could be a sign of PATN1.

Besides, I would also keep track on what horses that have been tested (if using a public stud) with their ID number and keep them in a list as most likely to not carry the PATN1 gene. This would eliminate the risk of reusing a stallion by mistake that has already been confirmed to not be of any interest.

[Silverine]

Besides, I would also keep track on what horses that have been tested (if using a public stud) with their ID number and keep them in a list as most likely to not carry the PATN1 gene. This would eliminate the risk of reusing a stallion by mistake that has already been confirmed to not be of any interest.

That's why I'm using my own studs. If they're not of use I can rehome them.

[BlackOak2]

A lot of brilliant points on both sides.
I'd like to offer some insight into what our admin did for other genes that (granted they are not leopard genes) may shed some more light into what could have been done for that elusive PATN1.

As it now is, in the search for PATN1, we are also confirming, denying and finding a lot of information on PATN2 genes. So... though it may take a while to succeed in locating that PATN1 gene, our work on the PATN2 gene is not without merit or use.

On Dappled Sooties: 'The breed carrying the Dapple Master Switch is one which rarely appears sooty itself. 1 in 4 horses will carry the gene, but it's a Simple Dominant so only one copy is needed.'

But really, how often do we see dappled sooty horses? We consider this trait (or at least I do), to be relatively rare.
So my point is that perhaps the PATN1 gene is not only out there already in a couple horses, but it needs some exact things for it to occur. For example... Lets say that the horse is divided into 5 quadrants. Head and neck, chest, stomach and butt; and lastly the front legs and also the back legs. Let's say that a horse needs to first have all five quadrants have the ability for white, not necessarily show it, just have the genes for it. Now perhaps say that the PATN1 gene is also recessive, so now we not only need to have the ability for all five quadrants, but also now two copies of the PATN1 gene.
So under these conditions, it may be very difficult to locate a carrier and also show it.

So when admin said that in order to get the white all over, we need to have a lot of different breeds included, maybe what she meant was that PATN1 won't be able to show until the proper coverage genes have been gathered together on one horse.

Which actually, after I've written and reread all that, makes a lot of sense.

[Silverine]

On Dappled Sooties: 'The breed carrying the Dapple Master Switch is one which rarely appears sooty itself. 1 in 4 horses will carry the gene, but it's a Simple Dominant so only one copy is needed.'

This is part of the reason I want to look at breeds that don't often show a lot of spots straight out of the AC. People like Belgians, Shetlands, and Caspians because they tend to have a lot of loud spots. Perhaps the PATN1 is hiding in a breed that would otherwise be somewhat innocuous?

As for genes for white everywhere - I know my snowcaps have them. They show up whenever I get a red foal. XD So hopefully that'll make it easier to find what we're looking for.

[BlackOak2]

This is part of the reason I want to look at breeds that don't often show a lot of spots straight out of the AC. People like Belgians, Shetlands, and Caspians because they tend to have a lot of loud spots. Perhaps the PATN1 is hiding in a breed that would otherwise be somewhat innocuous?

As for genes for white everywhere - I know my snowcaps have them. They show up whenever I get a red foal. XD So hopefully that'll make it easier to find what we're looking for.

Well, if you want the one that offers possibly no spot-help at all, in my notes, that would be Turkmene, Arabian and North African Barb and most likely in that order.

I'm working with some NAB right now, I'm getting... mixed results... nothing that I can offer at this point.

We actually may not be able to find this PATN1 until we have a PATN2 with the ability to color everywhere. Breed that back to a stud too early to carry leopard (hopefully carry the switch and the foal have only nominal patterning over parts of the body, but enough to offer a show that colors in all areas) and use that foal to try against AC breeds. That may offer the key we need. Should we find a horse that does offer, immediate full leopard, than we need to only figure out why and how the gene for PATN1 works.

Well, again, that's a lot of IF's.

We're on our way, though.

[Silverine]

We actually may not be able to find this PATN1 until we have a PATN2 with the ability to color everywhere.

I feel like we already have this, though. It just has to be on chestnut.

[BlackOak2]

I feel like we already have this, though. It just has to be on chestnut.

It could very well be true. PATN1 doesn't have a preference. But when crossed back to a black-based color, it should reveal either no blanket or full-leopard. PATN1 doesn't offer extended blanket, snowcaps or partial full-leopards. That's the biggest different between PATN1 and PATN2. 1 offers either nothing or full leopard (with sometimes spots of lost covering that shows color with fewspots). 2 offers anything from patches to a pseudo-full leopard. 2 can throw foals of any patterning range, while 1 can only offer a full-leopard or an entirely spot-less foal.

[Silverine]

It could very well be true. PATN1 doesn't have a preference. But when crossed back to a black-based color, it should reveal either no blanket or full-leopard. PATN1 doesn't offer extended blanket, snowcaps or partial full-leopards. That's the biggest different between PATN1 and PATN2. 1 offers either nothing or full leopard (with sometimes spots of lost covering that shows color with fewspots). 2 offers anything from patches to a pseudo-full leopard. 2 can throw foals of any patterning range, while 1 can only offer a full-leopard or an entirely spot-less foal.

I'm just saying that if we already have the PATN2 that covers everywhere on the chestnut, wouldn't that be enough to use to find the PATN1? Or do we have to get the coverage on black?