Community Forum

Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

User avatar
Totina
Premium
Premium
Posts: 524
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 9:35 am
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby Totina » May 17th, 2017, 4:56 am

BlackOak2 wrote:
So I finally received an acceptable offspring from a belgian mare. Except I think she does not carry the gene for medium spots, so I don't yet know if she has any spread at all. I plan to pick up another and try again, but I'm maxed out with horses at the moment.
As for the foal, a decent enough looking filly that might do better in the low GP project than my spotted herd, but we'll see what she can do. She still carries some of those belgian traits that I do want, regardless of appaloosa patterning. I do not yet see any difference either addition or subtraction that could be attributed to her mother (although I must say that only one of her five siblings offered anything more than just a butt-blanket... that one was born at 13hh plus, too tall).

Golden Fields


She looks nice. I have yet to get a belgian cross with the LP gene (I am trying out a few of the stallions that are up for stud) but apparantly the gene that causes the most white is supposed to be hidden in two breeds from the AC. I guess genetic testing could be helpful in this but unfortunately it is not yet implemented in the game and I don't know if we even will be able to test the appaloosa pattern genes.

But even if the gene that causes most white in a horse is the answer to true leopard pattern it seems that there is more to it than just one gene. For example I can get a foal with only blanket pattern from two near leopard horses sometimes and two horses with solid coloured heads and neck can get a foal that is near leopard.

Looking at the pictures from when the leopard complex was first introduced in the game:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4135

I don't see any true leopard pattern there and the horses that have the most white still have those "problem areas" we mentioned earlier in this thread.

User avatar
Totina
Premium
Premium
Posts: 524
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 9:35 am
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby Totina » May 17th, 2017, 8:23 am

BlackOak2 wrote:...


Just wanted to share my first LP carrying colt from a belgian stallion with two AC parents.



BlackOak2
Posts: 276
Joined: January 29th, 2016, 7:41 pm
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby BlackOak2 » May 17th, 2017, 8:18 pm

Totina wrote:
BlackOak2 wrote:...


Just wanted to share my first LP carrying colt from a belgian stallion with two AC parents.



Very nice coat patterning. But that's assuming that the AC lined belgian stud is actually a carrier of those genes. And that he passed it on to Golden Beast.
If I see no drastic differences, I'm prone to think that the AC line (or AC foundation horse) doesn't carry anything, or simply isn't passing them on (I have a couple mares or stallions that seem to offer their genes much more readily than others, regardless of the genes they could pass on). I am leaning much more toward the mare I picked up, just not having any patterning genes.

Having the ability to gene test would be great, but if they keep it as realistic as what we have today, we can today test for Lp and for the PATN1 genes, but not for anything of the PATN2 variety (I was looking at it yesterday online and came up with the understanding that anything that is NOT PATN1 is automatically considered PATN2, regardless of the fact that much like white colorations, they believe it's controlled by a lot more than just one or two additional alleles or genes themselves). The other thing I did learn, according to real life PATN genetics, that while one type of PATN1 will offer a near leopard, it will always only offer a near leopard or part leopard but... I think I remember it saying nothing less than part leopard (no blankets or other weird patterning). But the other type of PATN1 gene that does offer full leopard, can offer full, near or just blankets. But that's in real life. I don't know how closely our admins are keeping to the genetic studies that are available today.

I also was looking at that same announcements page yesterday and made a mock-up of some study work from it, trying to figure some of these things out. I actually believe that in order to make a full leopard, it will take the PATN1 most white and at least a couple from the PATN2 patternings to cover everywhere. From my old notes, if the belgians don't carry the full white (like I am prone to believe), then it's likely the trukmene, the arabian or the forest. My notes indicate that I've already found turkmene offers high spread snowflake, that the arabian seems to offer a much closer density of spots (and possibly a different patterning of the white, so it could hide some tough to cover area genes) and the forest offers large spots. I have nothing else about forest, but I do remember that I had trouble covering the neck (just none at all) before having the forest, and now I have it, but it's been a couple generations since I've had the forest.
I do not have any arabian blood in my stock yet, or barb... Now I do have the shetlands that 'cover over most of the body' notes as well... which means they may carry the one type of PATN1 that offer's the big blanket.
I need to find another appropriate belgian and an arabian.

The downside to the Lp gene is that it's an incomplete dominant... even if just one is passed on to the foal, the foal will definitely show whatever patterning genes that is also passed on. So I think my belgian mare is PATN deficient.

User avatar
Totina
Premium
Premium
Posts: 524
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 9:35 am
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby Totina » May 18th, 2017, 5:20 am

BlackOak2 wrote:
Very nice coat patterning. But that's assuming that the AC lined belgian stud is actually a carrier of those genes. And that he passed it on to Golden Beast.
If I see no drastic differences, I'm prone to think that the AC line (or AC foundation horse) doesn't carry anything, or simply isn't passing them on (I have a couple mares or stallions that seem to offer their genes much more readily than others, regardless of the genes they could pass on). I am leaning much more toward the mare I picked up, just not having any patterning genes.

Having the ability to gene test would be great, but if they keep it as realistic as what we have today, we can today test for Lp and for the PATN1 genes, but not for anything of the PATN2 variety (I was looking at it yesterday online and came up with the understanding that anything that is NOT PATN1 is automatically considered PATN2, regardless of the fact that much like white colorations, they believe it's controlled by a lot more than just one or two additional alleles or genes themselves). The other thing I did learn, according to real life PATN genetics, that while one type of PATN1 will offer a near leopard, it will always only offer a near leopard or part leopard but... I think I remember it saying nothing less than part leopard (no blankets or other weird patterning). But the other type of PATN1 gene that does offer full leopard, can offer full, near or just blankets. But that's in real life. I don't know how closely our admins are keeping to the genetic studies that are available today.

I also was looking at that same announcements page yesterday and made a mock-up of some study work from it, trying to figure some of these things out. I actually believe that in order to make a full leopard, it will take the PATN1 most white and at least a couple from the PATN2 patternings to cover everywhere. From my old notes, if the belgians don't carry the full white (like I am prone to believe), then it's likely the trukmene, the arabian or the forest. My notes indicate that I've already found turkmene offers high spread snowflake, that the arabian seems to offer a much closer density of spots (and possibly a different patterning of the white, so it could hide some tough to cover area genes) and the forest offers large spots. I have nothing else about forest, but I do remember that I had trouble covering the neck (just none at all) before having the forest, and now I have it, but it's been a couple generations since I've had the forest.
I do not have any arabian blood in my stock yet, or barb... Now I do have the shetlands that 'cover over most of the body' notes as well... which means they may carry the one type of PATN1 that offer's the big blanket.
I need to find another appropriate belgian and an arabian.

The downside to the Lp gene is that it's an incomplete dominant... even if just one is passed on to the foal, the foal will definitely show whatever patterning genes that is also passed on. So I think my belgian mare is PATN deficient.


The tricky part about finding the genes for the most white is that only two AC breeds carry the LP gene and that horses without it can carry those hidden genes that we want. It would take quite a lot of testing with random non-leopard horses to actually find something useful.

Then it also said in the infographic that there are some real world genes and some imaginary ones implemented in the game. My best guess would be that whatever is known about the PATN genes in real life is implemented in the game and the rest are just imaginary stuff to make the programming complete. If that is the case then I imagine it should be possible to get to full leopard, or at least very close to full leopard.

BlackOak2
Posts: 276
Joined: January 29th, 2016, 7:41 pm
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby BlackOak2 » May 18th, 2017, 5:41 pm

Totina wrote:
BlackOak2 wrote:
....


The tricky part about finding the genes for the most white is that only two AC breeds carry the LP gene and that horses without it can carry those hidden genes that we want. It would take quite a lot of testing with random non-leopard horses to actually find something useful.

Then it also said in the infographic that there are some real world genes and some imaginary ones implemented in the game. My best guess would be that whatever is known about the PATN genes in real life is implemented in the game and the rest are just imaginary stuff to make the programming complete. If that is the case then I imagine it should be possible to get to full leopard, or at least very close to full leopard.


I agree with both points, including that it was probably programed almost exactly the way real life plays out.
That being the case, I did take notice (except it's just now enlightening itself in my mind) that all those difficult areas to get patterns on, well not all, but the most notorious spots, are also the same spots that often aren't whited-out on fewspot appaloosa's in the real world.

As an interesting sidenote, I found this site to have a lot of well-worded information: https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/Coat_Color/PATN1.asp

I'll keep trying and post my results, if I have any good outcomes. I'm sure we'll find it eventually, or somebody will.

User avatar
Totina
Premium
Premium
Posts: 524
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 9:35 am
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby Totina » May 19th, 2017, 11:39 am

BlackOak2 wrote:
I agree with both points, including that it was probably programed almost exactly the way real life plays out.
That being the case, I did take notice (except it's just now enlightening itself in my mind) that all those difficult areas to get patterns on, well not all, but the most notorious spots, are also the same spots that often aren't whited-out on fewspot appaloosa's in the real world.

As an interesting sidenote, I found this site to have a lot of well-worded information: https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/Coat_Color/PATN1.asp

I'll keep trying and post my results, if I have any good outcomes. I'm sure we'll find it eventually, or somebody will.


The link provides really good information, but then we can only guess and experiment as to how the game actually handles the LP and PATN genes.

There are a few things that have bothered me however. I don't know if it is just my luck or if there is anything to it but I have had a lot of troubles getting white to the upper part of the right front leg on my heterozygous LP horses.
Take this stallion for example:
ℬℳ Golden Spot

The most white I have been able to get on that right front leg is a few white marks. Except the varnish roan, that area tend to be solid coloured at birth in all my heterozygous LP horses.

On the other hand, when two such horses give birth to a homozygous LP foal that area is covered in white like in this stallion:
ℬℳ Freezing Gold

I have tried for a long time to get white on that area in my heretozygous LP horses but it never seems to work as only my homozygous LP horses show white on that area. Breeding an LP/LP horse with an LP/n horse returns the same result all the time.

This has made me think that the PATN genes could possibly be coding for different kind of white areas depending on if the horse is carrying one or two copies of the LP gene. Like if two horses have the exact same PATN genes and one is homozygous and the other is heterozygous they would express "problem areas" differently.
Looking at just the two horses linked above. The homozygous LP stallion is showing some non-white interference on the chest while the heterozygous LP stallion is not. This is also a recurring feature among my LP/LP and Lp/n horses across the line and I have yet to see any exceptions to this at all.

BlackOak2
Posts: 276
Joined: January 29th, 2016, 7:41 pm
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby BlackOak2 » May 19th, 2017, 2:56 pm

Totina wrote:
The link provides really good information, but then we can only guess and experiment as to how the game actually handles the LP and PATN genes.

There are a few things that have bothered me however. I don't know if it is just my luck or if there is anything to it but I have had a lot of troubles getting white to the upper part of the right front leg on my heterozygous LP horses.
Take this stallion for example:
The most white I have been able to get on that right front leg is a few white marks. Except the varnish roan, that area tend to be solid coloured at birth in all my heterozygous LP horses.

On the other hand, when two such horses give birth to a homozygous LP foal that area is covered in white like in this stallion:
I have tried for a long time to get white on that area in my heretozygous LP horses but it never seems to work as only my homozygous LP horses show white on that area. Breeding an LP/LP horse with an LP/n horse returns the same result all the time.

This has made me think that the PATN genes could possibly be coding for different kind of white areas depending on if the horse is carrying one or two copies of the LP gene. Like if two horses have the exact same PATN genes and one is homozygous and the other is heterozygous they would express "problem areas" differently.
Looking at just the two horses linked above. The homozygous LP stallion is showing some non-white interference on the chest while the heterozygous LP stallion is not. This is also a recurring feature among my LP/LP and Lp/n horses across the line and I have yet to see any exceptions to this at all.


As I'm sure you're aware of, I'm not as far along in my full leopard as you are. I hadn't even realized that upper right leg trouble area, but now that you're bringing light to it, I'm also realizing that a lot of mine is also missing that area. But... perhaps I can fix your issue with further insight, because I see that I do, in fact, have eleven in all my herd and bloodlines that have either about what your stallion is showing (just the barest hint of perhaps white on that leg), but I also have a couple in that eleven, that offers partial or full white that are also not double Lp.
So these have the beginning of coverage:
Mist Mirages

Mirage Of Rain

Cloudy Twilight

Emerald Rain

Rising Diamonds

First Skies




And these have partial or almost full coverage:
Sunrise Twilight

Blue Twilight

Shades Of Gray

Wings Of Will'O'Wisp

Last Stands




This one does appear to have full coverage:
Waning Fear


I noticed as I scrolled through my pastures, that all of them are related. They all go through the sire Shades Of Gray (or for I think just two, Illusion In Black And White, his sire), which goes back to Przewalski (as well as tarpan & caspian, but I didn't see any shetland). There is also the one forest horse that pops up (I only had one though), but only in a couple of those pedigrees and not through Shades Of Gray, so I think that might be an unrelated coincidence. Granted much of my bloodlines are related in some way, but the pattern spreading goes back to those two horses (Illusions In Black And White was, if memory serves, my first foal born with much more than just a blanket spread over chest).

So if I had to guess, that right elbow, inside, front leg spreading is probably carried by Przewalski horses (considering tarpan and caspian or shetland and caspian are two of of the founding crosses for Lp and patterning spread, I am nominally writing off both of them for that area, but also because not all of my lines was started with Przewalski in as a founding parent. Most of my other lines are shetland, caspian and tarpan crossings).

Hopefully, that fixes your non-coverage issue, or maybe gives you enough blood that you can hunt down a different answer that I found.

User avatar
Totina
Premium
Premium
Posts: 524
Joined: May 11th, 2015, 9:35 am
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby Totina » May 19th, 2017, 4:37 pm

BlackOak2 wrote:
As I'm sure you're aware of, I'm not as far along in my full leopard as you are. I hadn't even realized that upper right leg trouble area, but now that you're bringing light to it, I'm also realizing that a lot of mine is also missing that area. But... perhaps I can fix your issue with further insight, because I see that I do, in fact, have eleven in all my herd and bloodlines that have either about what your stallion is showing (just the barest hint of perhaps white on that leg), but I also have a couple in that eleven, that offers partial or full white that are also not double Lp.
So these have the beginning of coverage:

....

I noticed as I scrolled through my pastures, that all of them are related. They all go through the sire Shades Of Gray (or for I think just two, Illusion In Black And White, his sire), which goes back to Przewalski (as well as tarpan & caspian, but I didn't see any shetland). There is also the one forest horse that pops up (I only had one though), but only in a couple of those pedigrees and not through Shades Of Gray, so I think that might be an unrelated coincidence. Granted much of my bloodlines are related in some way, but the pattern spreading goes back to those two horses (Illusions In Black And White was, if memory serves, my first foal born with much more than just a blanket spread over chest).

So if I had to guess, that right elbow, inside, front leg spreading is probably carried by Przewalski horses (considering tarpan and caspian or shetland and caspian are two of of the founding crosses for Lp and patterning spread, I am nominally writing off both of them for that area, but also because not all of my lines was started with Przewalski in as a founding parent. Most of my other lines are shetland, caspian and tarpan crossings).

Hopefully, that fixes your non-coverage issue, or maybe gives you enough blood that you can hunt down a different answer that I found.


Waning Fear definitely has that white front leg that I am looking for but never get unless the horses have double LP genes. The problem is that I don't want to add too many new lines into my herd too quickly in case I lose the progress and go back to less white than I have now.
I already have problems when I am trying to mix some black based coats into my all chestnut based leopard herd. All foals that are black based, no matter what combination of parents, end up with solid coloured heads and necks, which is a huge step backwards from my other chestnut horses. Which also is very interesting to say the least.
Whenever I breed some of my black based horses, either with each other or with a chestnut based horse, all black based foals end up with solid coloured heads and all chestnut foals end up as near leopards.
I don't know if I'm just having a lot of bad luck or if the pattern genes somehow are connected to what base colour the horses have, or if it is a bug.

BlackOak2
Posts: 276
Joined: January 29th, 2016, 7:41 pm
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby BlackOak2 » May 19th, 2017, 5:11 pm

Totina wrote:
Waning Fear definitely has that white front leg that I am looking for but never get unless the horses have double LP genes. The problem is that I don't want to add too many new lines into my herd too quickly in case I lose the progress and go back to less white than I have now.
I already have problems when I am trying to mix some black based coats into my all chestnut based leopard herd. All foals that are black based, no matter what combination of parents, end up with solid coloured heads and necks, which is a huge step backwards from my other chestnut horses. Which also is very interesting to say the least.
Whenever I breed some of my black based horses, either with each other or with a chestnut based horse, all black based foals end up with solid coloured heads and all chestnut foals end up as near leopards.
I don't know if I'm just having a lot of bad luck or if the pattern genes somehow are connected to what base colour the horses have, or if it is a bug.


I remember there being a post about black coats and appaloosa markings... I could've sworn Argent posted it, but I'm not finding it at the moment. I'll locate it and read it again, link it here too, so we both have it.

Really, the step back is only if parts of your herd is carrying heterozygosity instead of homozygosity genes. But I know what you mean. Every time I cross a blanket with a partial leopard, I very often get blanketed foals, instead of partial or better.
Since I'm sitting here, stewing on the patterning, Lp and coverage... I wonder if we're looking at it a little backwards (or at least I am). Perhaps what we're working with is PATN2 type genes (where it takes a number of alleles to cover like a PATN1 full leopard) instead of what I thought we could be working with, the PATN1 genes that can go full leopard (or could).
So perhaps the PATN1 full leopard is just really rare. It comes only on one breed on here and although they carry certain patterns, the PATN1 full leopard is only a small portion of that breed that carries any patterning potential at all.
If I were programing it, that might be the way I would go. After all, a true full leopard is supposed to be kind of rare anyway.

But... if your black loss of white area is connected to a bug... How do we confirm, define or otherwise figure that out? How would our admins, except to take a sampling and play with the base code to see what happens? ... um... I probably don't have that last worded correctly, but I think I still offer my point well enough.

BlackOak2
Posts: 276
Joined: January 29th, 2016, 7:41 pm
Visit My Farm

Re: Crummy foal quest. Anyone else working on it?

Postby BlackOak2 » May 19th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Totina wrote:...


I found it. But it's just a link to a google picture search.


"Postby Argent II » February 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
https://www.google.com/search?q=appaloo%20...%2042&bih=936

Keep in mind, for those of you breeding non-red horses."

I thought it was more informative. I suppose not.


Return to “General Chit Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests