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Community Reminder - Holiday 2021
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BlackOak2
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Community Reminder - Holiday 2021
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all on HWO!
And especially remember: It is not what the other person celebrates, but the expression that you celebrate from. It's okay to say 'Merry Christmas' to another person and for them to say 'Happy Hanukkah' back to you. Because it's not about the holiday as much as it's about the spirit of the season.
For me, I stopped celebrating awhile ago, for various reasons. But I will still offer the season to those that do. Enjoy the holidays!
May all of you kick up your heels and watch the holidays sparkle!
Included in this release:
General Thoughts & Considerations
Interesting New Developments on HWO - Hints & Tips Version
General Thoughts & Considerations
Once again, this is what's on my mind. It'll be short this time, I promise.
There hasn't been too much going on around here. No problems and little in the way of questions or other work. A lot of sales have been going on; make sure you're highlighting your sales appropriately! If you need some ideas of how to do so, see this link.
Keep it up! As a community, we're doing great!
As a last note, for those of you that have been cleaning the market, there seems to have been a great impact! It looks so much more slimmer! The weight loss plan and the exercising has worked wonders on that market. For all of you that have been dedicating time, room, money and churning turns to age them out, Kudos! and Thank You! It will continue to be a challenge, but with maintenance it will remain manageable.
And that's it! For this section.
Interesting New Developments on HWO
This time, this section is dedicated to some helpful tips and hints and a start of a discussion about bloodline development.
Subsections:
Reducing Herd Size
The Search For Market Horses
Evaluating A Competition Horse
The Uses Of COI
HGP, What It Is
Bloodline Discussion
Reducing Herd Size
We all struggle with this one at some point. We either purchase a few too many from the market, breed too many favorites or find ourselves unable to get rid of a foal because it's just 'too good'.
So here's a few tips to help with reducing a herd size (through breeding) in fairly short order. Of course, depending on your herd size, this technique may be a much longer trek.
First and foremost, figure out just how many mares and how many stallions you want to eventually have. Is five mares and two stallions appropriate? Is just two mares and one stallion right? Or do you want something more like ten mares and four to six stallions? It's important to first discipline yourself to the minimum amount of mares and stallions you want. Then give yourself a couple for overage. This doesn't mean to keep ten mares when you want just two, but allow for some overage. One or two is more than enough.
Then check your herd. Evaluate the herd on what your original goal (or consecutive existing goal) is. Those that highlight your goal well, mark differently than those that are rather poor. If you can get rid of these that are 'poor', do so. If you can't, mark them as only having ONE keeper foal. Sometimes it's best to pair these up with a partner that will also have only ONE keeper foal, but because goals usually define one certain thing, the 'poor' horses usually aren't at opposite ends of the spectrum (for instance, a horse that's 12 hands and a horse that's 17 hands and you want somewhere in the 15 hands range).
All the horses you have that highlight your goal, give them an option of two foals, but ONLY if they pop good foals in the first couple breedings. For instance, if your mare pops a perfect foal in the first three breedings, try again, but only for another five times. Then, if you have two great foals from her, perfect, retire her. But if you only ever get one, then okay, you still have one and it's probably caring the best genes for your project that the mare (or the pairing) could possibly offer.
Now for the actual technique. I recommend first shrinking your herd by getting your colts under control. So use your mares as the carriers and all of you colts, only keep ONE foal from them (only the best), regardless of if it's a filly or a colt. Better if it's a healthy mix of both genders. And then, if it's a good filly that pops [retire also the mare]. You then have ONE horse from two.
Weaker mares, you should consider keeping a colt from. So when you pop a colt from a stallion and it's acceptable, also retire the mare. She gave you what you needed. This is because a colt will always be slightly better than a filly.
Once you find yourself with a lot of mares and very few stallions, then switch to tackling the mare herd. Use the same technique. This time, however, every mare that doesn't highlight what you want, schedule her for a colt (if she gives you a nice filly, that's great! retire her and keep the filly), but all of your good mares, schedule for a single filly. If any particular mare drops a perfect filly in the first two or three coverings and you want an identical one (or a perfect colt as well), feel free to try her again. But remember, every time that you allow a horse to give multiple offspring, you're INCREASING herd size and not reducing.
At this time, you're only keeping ONE foal from each pairing. You may inevitably have horses (especially stallions) that you end up keeping more than one foal from. The trick of this technique is that for the MOST part, you'll be keeping only ONE foal from each set of parents.
If you school yourself to keeping the technique [for the most part], you will be halving your herd in no time, keeping the best offspring that still reflect your primary goal and encouraging or at least not depleting the primary genes that will also reflect the progression of your goal.
When using this technique, you will likely find a bit of movement around your initial goal. It may seem like your herd is moving away in some areas or toward in others. This herd-thinning technique is not designed to move you forward in you goal, it's designed to slimline your herd to a more workable level (or reduce it enough for the project to be shelved).
The Search For Market Horses
Evaluating market horses can be tough. Even for skilled and senior members of our community. What most will first ask (when looking for themselves or when aiding another person), is 'what are the plans for the horse?' or 'are you (or I) looking for a grinder, a breeder or a competitor?'
These questions are very important ones. The second one especially, because these three categories mean different things when evaluating a horse. For sanity's sake, I won't be covering a competing horse in this section, see the next section for that.
If the answer to the question is: 'Grinder, definitely Grinder!'
Then this is a fairly straightforward search. Limit to horses over HGP 55k; has at least one colored comment (green OR gold, but not red); and if available, has high conformation stat numbers. For the most part, a healthy mix of good and great comments or also even one or two poor comments is fine. A grinder won't be slowed down much with a mix of good and bad traits. After all, the grinder will only be asked to perform in local shows and earn random day and PT drops. As long as you adhere to these few expectations, for the most part, your grinder will be adequate and earn you enough for his or her replacement when the time comes. Don't forget to budget in training if you're not training the horse yourself. As an added benefit, high HGP arabians always seem to be good, strong grinders in endurance, level 10. Although the ones floating around the market like these, make rather poor and ugly competition horses (player-made competitions) and unless breeding strictly for this look, also generally make rather poor breeders for anything else. So be aware that pretty doesn't mean great.
Now, if your answer instead is: 'Uh, breeder. I'm developing my own bloodline.'
This gets a little more complicated. First I'm going to assume you already know the breed you want and your goal. I'm also going to assume you're NOT aiming for a pre-made bloodline. What I mean by this phrase [pre-made bloodline] is a line that's already been developed to HGP 50k or higher.
Okay, so choose your breed from the drop-down menu, choose your age limitations (remember 4 year old mares and 3 year old stallions are breedable), and if you already have your goals in mind, also consider choosing height (take into account the search defines foals' born-at height and not final adult height for horses younger than 5 years). However, height can always be fixed through breeding.
I suggest leaving color empty. Since we can fill in our own color, you will be missing or also pulling up colors that fall outside of what you want.
A good base breeder will be at least HGP 25k (this is the AC lower-end standard), but a solid base generally starts at somewhere around HGP 35k to 45k (this is the AC higher-end standard and within two or three generations of AC). If you can find your horses right in this higher range, you're off to a good start. At this higher HGP range, one can expect that many of the absolute worst genes are likely already culled out, as long as these aren't base AC stock. If you choose to start from base AC stock, just keep in mind that there will be a mix of hidden good and bad genes that you will need to cull out and favor for the first few generations. This is work that is usually needed even before you start on your own project. You can easily call it 'maintenance culling'.
Look at the Breeder's Report comments. Are they a mix of both good and bad? Are there any red comments? How about green and golds?
At this stage, too many green and gold comments aren't what you want. They generally mean that the horse's conformation (body form) are carrying the horse and not the actual genes themselves. Even with two, one green and one gold comment, a horse like this is probably more fit as a grinder than a breeder. But, if you have one or two good, strong comments without color, then this horse may have some good genes in these stats, rather than strictly body conformation.
With this HGP range (35k to 45k) you should expect one or two poor comments, one good or great comment and the rest about mediocre or average. The lower range end, you can expect upward of three or even four poor comments and perhaps no good comments, just average or mediocre. Yet, keep in mind that these horses' hidden traits and genes could be well worth working with them.
Then, if you also can see the conformation scores, favor the ones with really low numbers, not high. It's not a necessity to see the scores, but it can help.
Now that you've looked through all of these, take a look at the horse's pedigree. Look back more than just a couple generations. Are any of these horses titled? Are there multiple with multiple titles? Investigate these a little further. Click their links and go to these horses. Take a look at their competition record. Do they have a lot of wins? Is their WPS (win/place/show) percentage high or low? If it looks high, click on the discipline and look at their actual discipline record. Are many of these competitions low levels? Are they high? Do some of the competitions have remarkably high point earnings? Depending on the HGP of that horse, you should consider the level of competition they should be performing at. If we keep the range that you're purchasing (35k to 45k) and pretty much anything under HGP 50k, these horses should perform okay at level five competition and lower. The lower HGP will have less abilities to pull upon then the higher ones, but generally speaking, this will be their performance levels. Once you get into the HGP 55k and upward, the competition level should be at and then above five.
If everything still checks out, or appears to be acceptable, open the progeny tab and take a quick look over the foals. Are any of these titled? Are these titled horses looking better (overall) then that parent? Are they serious overachievers that may be too good? There is generally one foal from a parent that's like this. But multiple or all that appear this way may mean that this horse is too good to be true and that you may have to make some adjustments down the road for ill-genes that still need to be worked out.
If there isn't any titled horses, that's not a big deal. Sometimes it's easier to work with and develop an unknown bloodline then to work with and fix issues that you do know. Titled pedigree just means that you have some more information to diagnose potential problems with.
However, as a last note, the stats that don't matter to your goal (for instance, any stat outside of the competition you want to develop), remember that they don't matter as a breeder either. So if you're not focusing on speed, then a really high speed comment with a high speed score isn't necessary or unnecessary, it can be entirely dismissed at whatever status it has. That being said, if you're aiming for a log-puller, then such a comment will also describe a lightweight horse. In this case, this might factor in to your search. But remember again, incorrect body form can be fixed IF the horse has everything else that's just perfect.
In the end, practically any horse can start a bloodline and such a bloodline can be turned into a success. It's all about time, patience and culling practices.
Evaluating A Competition Horse
Now for the final one.
If your answer is instead: 'Yeah... I want to enter a horse in every competition available! Or, just find a good one that makes me some money.'
This is a bit taller of an order. Generally speaking, a good competition horse is also a good breeder. But a good breeder may make a terrible competition horse. And sometimes a great competition horse ends up never throwing a worthwhile foal.
So, generally speaking, you want very similar things that you would look for in a breeder with a few exceptions.
For a competition horse (or a competition horse prospect, meaning, nominally, it's untrained), you want to focus on an HGP range of 55k to 65k. You want to favor horses that have a healthy mix of positive and strong Breeder Report comments and (if you can see it) a healthy (but not necessary high) number collection of conformation stat scores. The higher HGP you go, the slightly higher conformation scores you want. And take particular notice of the corresponding comment and comment color. If you're looking at a 20 to 39 conformation score, you'll want a positive and upward comment and color. 35 to 45, that comment should be green. 40 and upward, you're aiming for gold.
Why is there so much overlap? Because a great competitor may have a stronger color in one stat and a slightly not-so-strong one in another. So there is a bit of give and take.
And, of course, consider what the horse is designed for. Medium and lighter horses are best for quicker disciplines. Medium and heavier horses are best for horses that require sheer strength or sturdy-style competitions (a horse that won't shy easily, essentially).
So horse's that are lightweight should be favoring stats like speed, movement, balance and agility. And a heavy horse you should see stronger stat structures most generally in strength and stamina.
So what about the medium horses? You know, like quarter horses that are neither light or heavy?
These type of horses (most obviously for the western-style disciplines but not restricted to them) should favor such stats like intelligence and agility.
Seeing some more overlap?
And additional questions?
Like, for instance, where do the other stats fit? This isn't an all-encompassing overview of where the stats fit best in which body form. This is where the most heavily used stats fit in with the disciplines the most and are paired with the body form that's 'best' for that discipline. Which also means I just gave you a generalized guide of the stats that a person should see improving when breeding to certain body-styles. 
Remember, a body style doesn't restrict a horse into (or out of) a particular discipline. A horse with an exceptional heart gene can succeed in a vast range of disciplines. These are 'Specialty Generalization' competition-style horses (versus the 'Specialized' competition horse). Such horses may not break records or even regularly beat specialized horses, but with a much wider range, these horses can be bred into specialties and also have a wider earnings ratio, especially when one particular discipline is too hot to tackle at any given time.
And perhaps one of the most important evaluators when looking for a good competition horse or a good prospect horse, is pedigree. You will want to see at least one titled pedigree horse and hopefully it's a parent or grandparent. More is great! None means that you're simply dealing with an unknown and you'll be rolling the dice. You could get a record holder, or you could get one that flops.
Now, take a look at the titled horses, review the competitions that have the best WPS. Look at the point earnings, take note of competitions that appear to have way too many points and also take note of the scores earned. They should be competitive and closing in on record holding scores, IF the discipline is 'hot'. Likewise, if at any given time, the discipline is 'cold' they should be consistently earning scores on the higher end of the current results. So a potentially 'weaker' competition horse can still be quite successful and a high earner.
And take a look, briefly, at the foals of these titled parents. Are many competitive? Is there a difference between the fillies and the colts? Are any of their WPS close to that parent? Do they do better in other disciplines than that parent? Are the scores near, surpassing or holding steady compared to that parent?
The good competitors and competitor prospects will have siblings that are close-to or on par with that titled parent. Overall, their 'on-paper' stats (these include BR, scores and overall body look) should resemble that parent with only a little discrepancy. And finally, does the horse that's available for purchase look similar to his or her siblings?
If overall, you feel this horse comes close to many of these highlights, you probably have a strong chance of having a good competitor or prospect on your hands.
And briefly, if the horse you're interested in, already has a record, also review this. Sometimes more importantly than pedigree performance, a horse's actual performance is incredibly telling. If such a horse has a record, you will need to also take note of temperament (was the horse entered or likely entered at the right temperament?) and body weight (was he or she too fat, most likely, at the time of entering?).
Also, could it be that this horse just wasn't entered into an appropriate discipline (body form and stats may indicate a better one)? A strong WPS may have been tainted by low level competitions or a false-pointing to artificially boost the scores. So it's also important to take a look at the actual discipline records and give them an once-over to ferret out any fishiness.
But if the horse still looks good, then you may have found the horse you're looking for. If you have additional questions, feel free to leave a comment or question, or also open your own topic in the questions forum (if it's a discussion, it may be better in the General Chit Chat forum).
The Uses Of COI
First, a short definition.
COI stands for the Coefficient Of Inbreeding. What this means is (essentially) the amount of genes or the number of related bloodline that's been duplicated in the horse's pedigree for seven generations.
Inbreeding (as of yet) has no negative consequences on this game. In the future, this is still planned to change where 'general unsoundness' will be implemented for inbred horses. To what extent and at what percentage this will affect our horses, we do not yet know.
But you said 'the uses of COI', can it be useful? You see, it's right there, in the title. Yes, it is. And, yes, it can be. There are a few ways that manipulating COI can be helpful to breeding.
Very simply, you will be duplicating genes by breeding siblings together or parents to children. Culling becomes easier because unwanted genes are wiped out in only one or two generations and precise color development is enhanced. But also, certain things (like color development) can easily start exponentially increasing because you're 'doubling down' on the genes.
So. If you want to 'set' a gene. First you have to find it. Good speed, for instance, with a great comment, gold color and high conformation score. By breeding such a horse to a parent or a sibling, the resulting foal will either reveal a better collection of speed stats or worse. Worse gets culled, better gets saved. Such a foal is then bred back to either parent, OR a sibling (either half or full) is bred and these two are bred together. Then from this point, the family tree no longer branches. Foals that come out wrong are culled and full siblings are bred back together. After only a couple generations, remarkably similar foals will start to pop with the occasional oddly whimsical or scary unexpected one. By culling these oddities out and favoring the others, the last of the unwanted genes are virtually eradicated.
This is the way a gene can be 'set'. Under certain circumstances, these genes will carry through when breeding out, remaining strong, simply because there are no poorer genes to pass onward (you've already culled them out). You will keep your bloodline as it is, eventually creating carbon copies (somewhere around 75% COI this will start to happen).
But there is also a downside.
You will be limiting the upward growth of your genes as well. Eventually, you will simply have no more upward ability because you culled out all the excess genes.
So by inbreeding, you can boost your bloodline forward in great strides, quickly ridding your herd of unwanted genes and doubling over the genes you want to favor, but you're also beginning the long process of limiting and eventually plateauing the growth of your bloodline. Your carbon-copy horses eventually actually become carbon-copies (insofar as HWO will allow).
Okay, I get the usefulness of early inbreeding, but by limiting it to a number of generations until I'm pleased with the result, how do I get it back under control? Of course by adding new blood. Either, early on, save a couple horses from your own bloodline to breed back to (remember COI only takes into account the last seven generations), OR use an outside bloodline you're satisfied with. A grade horse is very useful in this situation if you don't want to or didn't save a couple early horses.
Alright, so if it's so handy to inbreed horses early, why would anybody want to avoid it? Other than the obvious desire to not breed a sister to a brother or a father to a daughter or a mother to a son, by limiting or not utilizing inbreeding at all, a bloodline does take longer to develop. Unwanted genes don't always come forward until many generations into it. Desirable genes develop slowly (usually).
Not yet sounding like much benefit yet, I know, read on.
There will always be an influx of new, unknown genes, so there is no plateauing of the bloodline and weird foal outcomes (because of the highlight of oddities, like super long ears or a teacup nose on a belgian face) don't generally happen. Such a bloodline will also (generally speaking) almost always breed out well (except to high COI bloodlines which are hit and miss). And the development of a low or no COI bloodline will eventually set their genes in such a way that they'll highlight their good genes more regularly during outcrosses.
Essentially, once a low or no COI line is developed, they have much greater growth prospect with much less negative consequences than a high COI line.
So... can I marriage the two techniques together? Yes. By utilizing the first one (high COI) in primary breeding and then working to seize back COI to more manageable levels, one can create a productive or mass-produce a baseline bloodline and then develop and hone the bloodline toward lower COI levels and long-term utilization.
And, since I'm getting into it, taking back COI control and also controlling COI over the long-haul utilize the same technique. By utilizing such a technique, you will be able to eventually lower and control COI at or under about 25%.
Okay! Stop talking about it and tell me what it is! ... You will, won't you? It's not, like, a secret or something? No, it's no secret. But sometimes it takes a bit of explaining to get a handle on it. So, hopefully, you'll understand it on the first go around.
You will need three stallions (at least two) OR three mares (at least two). Or some combination therein. It's suggested that these three horses are not related or at least are not related closely. So a grandparent is fine, but not two grandchildren. An aunt is probably too close. So your choice horses will need to be a couple generations removed from each other IF you choose to save some from your own bloodline.
By saving from your own bloodline, you can control the injection of known genes into your herd and you'll be pulling away less from your ultimate goals.
Plus, you will want to eventually replace these horses on a semi-regular basis. Not all the time, just as your herd improves, take a really great horse that either is producing well or is prime for your ultimate goals and replace one of the out-crossing ones with that horse. This keeps your ultimate goal in mind and keeps you moving forward meanwhile you're still controlling your COI.
In this case, it's best if you have your own freezable account, so you can access these horses when you need to. But hiring or boarding at another account is also good. As long as these horses are available to you over the longer haul of your project (many generations worth).
Now, reevaluate these horses for close relationships. If they are, is there a better option for one of them? If not, continue forward.
Label them as #1, #2, #3 (up to five, but you won't really need any more than four). This is the order you will go back to breed to. #1 will be bred to first. For the next round, you will breed to #2. For the following round it will be #3. Then when you reach the final horse (be that #3, #4 or #5), you will then return to #1 and start again. It is important that you do not skip through these numbers. Label them and use them in order and don't change this order.
For the first round, you will choose two partners from your main herd to breed to #1. If you have a very large herd, choose up to five. But keeping it less with a herd that has a population that's still under control will make managing the COI project easier. When acceptable foals pop, label them so you know they're outcrossed (#1 foal).
Do Not make the mistake of breeding #1 foals together. If you can manage it, don't breed #1 foals' foals together. These #1 foals are to be bred to chosen partners (whichever you determine would make best matches) to others in your main herd. You don't need to keep many offspring. One or two is more than enough.
So, now you have bred parent to outcross #1 and produced #1 foals.
#1 foals are all grown up and have produced #1 foal babies (now named Baby Lot).
Baby Lot are all grown up and producing foals for themselves (now named Primary).
When Primary are all grown up and ready for breeding (this is the third generation), we return to outcross and breed to #2.
#2 Does Not need to be bred to any Primary. #2 can be bred to any of your main herd you want. If using grade horses, I recommend not breeding any outcross grade to any non-purebred from your herd. I would also recommend that in your herd, you will only breed a purebred to a mix and not a mix to a mix. Grade outcrosses are extremely helpful and won't slow you down by much. In fact, it may even help you keep tallies on which horses are ready and available to be bred to outcrosses.
Repeat the whole process with #2 and when #2 Primary are all grown up, return and repeat the whole process for #3.
When you hit the end of your saved outcrosses, return to #1 and continue repeating the process. This will start to halve and diminish your COI in relatively short order. It will start in one area of your main herd and expand. This will also not fundamentally change the baseline of your herd, because you're injecting the outcross lines only a little at a time. By using your own saved bloodline, you will diminish this chance even more.
Uh, okay. That might take a bit of practice to get a handle on it though. At risk of making myself more confused, are there different tactics for this process? Yes. If you have more saved outcrosses, you can cut your generations down to two, instead of three, so you'd be breeding back to #2 with Baby Lot instead of Primary. Large herds can also handle this tactic if you're favoring less outcrosses. So if you breed only two or three parents to #1 and keep only those two or three foals, then by doing so every two generations, you will still be controlling COI.
However, you may need to use four or even five outcrosses to ensure your outcrosses aren't showing up in the seven generation COI.
Also, in smaller main herds, you may only want to outcross once and keep one foal. But in this case #1 foal will need to produce and you will need to keep two Baby Lot's.
I don't recommend in small herds to use the two-generation tactic, unless you have four outcross horses to do so.
I... uh... am confused a bit, but I think practicing it will help clear it up. But, you said that the outcrosses should be replaced eventually. When would that happen? Nominally when you have one that trumps one of the outcrosses by a good bit. But also remember that it should then be the last in the line for use. So if you're on #1 and you're replacing #1 with a new one, then the new one should become #4 and you would simply have no #1 (or, if you can handle it, #2 becomes #1 and #3 becomes #2 and the new one then becomes #3). For the first use of the new replacement, you may see very little COI control movement. And this is simply because the horse is still too new and could share pedigree horses with the current horses in your herd.
Don't worry, just be picky that you don't breed the new outcross to a direct parent or sibling (or even grandparent) and you will be good to continue.
Also, when you replace horses, make sure you only replace One Per Revolution. This will ensure that none of the replacements are closely related and that none of the new outcrosses are suddenly within seven generations of your current herd.
This means you will replace one horse and go entirely through the rest (#1, #2, and #3), use the new outcross and then see about replacing one of the others with another outcross prospect.
This is assuming you're keeping and replacing using your own bloodline.
If you're using outcrosses you're purchasing from the market, you only need to ensure the horses you purchase have a COI somewhere at or under 60%. The lower, the better. I generally recommend no higher than 50%. But by purchasing a COI horse with 55%, you will still produce foals at about 26%-27% COI minimum and you can limit the genes that are coming in (note back to the first discussion on the usefulness of inbreeding to cull out unwanted genes).
HGP, What It Is
An excerpt of an answer I offered in the forums:
[quote]First, a short history note. A number of years ago, we didn't have HGP [Horse Genetic Potential]. We only had the breeder's report and the conformation scores. Because of some discussions among the community and with admin, admin decided to reveal the HGP for us. It already existed, we just weren't able to see it.
Now, for the actuality.
Horse Genetic Potential is the hard number of all of the gene's hard numbers AND ALSO the conformation scores hard numbers all added together. Basically speaking, the more numbers you have the more genes and higher confo scores you'll have and the more greens and golds you'll have. That's not the stop-all, end-all of it, but basically, that's what it boils down to.[/quote]
What this means is that the higher the HGP number a horse has, the more genes it has and the more hidden potential the horse COULD have.
But just because a horse has a really high HGP number, doesn't mean such a horse is the best horse to have on HWO.
First, one must ask: What, my my mind makes a 'best' horse on a game?
Such a question can have many answers on HWO. On other games, it's usually a horse that dominates in a discipline. But on HWO, there are many ways to be considered a top player and being on the top leaderboards doesn't always matter to us (the players).
So, what's the answer to such a question, for you? Before I answer this question on my personal opinion, first let me tackle the more general one of: So what does HGP mean to a horse that is a great competitor? What's the connection?
A great competition horse isn't determined by a top HGP score. Most of our best and record holding horses have high but rather mediocre HGP scores when you realize the top HGP scores a horse can actually have on the game (in some cases, a difference of 20k points). Top HGP does have a firm cap, but it's yet unknown. It's somewhere in the 80k area (this has been debated however).
This is because a competition horse has hidden values that affect the horse in addition to the hard HGP numbers. And, to frustrate you further, these hidden values are NOT counted in the HGP at all. 
Isn't admin just loving us??? Actually, it's designed this way to ensure there are multiple ways to succeed here and to ensure that the best looking horses aren't also the best at literally everything as well.
With that being said, hard HGP values DO factor in to a horse's ability to compete. A horse with the best hidden competition talents and little overall HGP, just can't compete when up against a horse with a high HGP and no hidden competition talents. But that difference can still be 20k HGP points, depending on how all the hidden traits roll out, overall training and how the base stats interact with one another. And of course, the roll of the randomness factor as well as a couple other minor factors.
A mediocre horse on its best day can beat a great horse on its worst. The game is made to be an even playing field and to keep things fair.
So the more HGP a horse has does not also equate to being the best. It could but is (at this point in time) exceptionally rare, even so to being unknown.
So, now back to the other question, what, in my personal opinion, makes a 'best' horse on HWO? In fact, my answer is: A horse that has it all! One that is a good, strong competitor (but isn't necessarily a record holder), that also has a good 'on-paper' look (high HGP, but not necessarily maxed; good, strong conformation scores and equivalent Breeder Report comments with appropriate colors) and that's also a reliable and strong breeder. I also prefer a 'Specialized Generalist' over a 'Specialty' competitor. And, of course, color. The horse needs to be from a developed color line. One that's been bred to carry whatever color most desirable, whether that's a plain bay or a pintaloosa.
In my mind, development of a bloodline is the pathway to success. Even if the bloodline never goes anywhere special, by finishing such a project, a player can consider themselves successful and most generally, the community will also see it as a success. (And pay the prices for it as well)
So... to return to the earlier excerpt:
[quote]In summary, HGP is a hard value telling us the hard numbers (genes and conformation scores) that make a horse. But they can't tell us competition talent or competition ability of our horses.[/quote]
Nor can such a thing tell us the success of the players in the game itself. Breeding strictly for top HGP is a success in and of itself, but only tells us so much and such horses still have a lot of unknowns.
Bloodline Discussion
First, let me say, this may be a delicate or touchy subject. Second, feel free to post comments, questions and you're own thoughts below. Any strong reflections or pertinent opinions, I'll add them to a saved reply just below this primary one with further discussion, my own responses and other well-worded responses if and where appropriate. And if this does grow into a full-fledged discussion, so be it. Feel free to continue such a discussion here until it's finality.
So, I'll begin with a few probing questions to help stir the thoughts.
Is there a difference between a private bloodline and a personal bloodline?
What does it mean [to you] when somebody says 'developed from scratch'?
At what point does another person's bloodline becomes the new owner's bloodline?
Here are my thoughts on these subjects.
First, I do feel there is a bit of a difference between a private bloodline and a personal bloodline. In my opinion, a private one is rarely or never offered out to anybody else. I also hold the concept that such a bloodline is built from AC stock.
Such a line is designed to not be offered to the public at large at any real point in time, but may have future use in certain semi-private instances, like for a club or contest.
A personal bloodline, in my opinion, is one that's most likely purchased from an already established or started one from the market. Often times, I feel that these lines serve a working purpose, like grinder production or proof-of-theory. Such lines aren't often shared, but it's not really because it's not wanted to be shared, but more so because there's little real use for the rest of the community. An example of this might be producing a rare (mostly unwanted or uninterested) breed to get to a resulting breed that you want. Once established, the rare breed you used to get to your final breed is aged out, this would be a prime example of a personal bloodline, in my opinion.
A bloodline built 'from scratch', to me, is saying, very strictly, that it's straight from AC stock and not utilizing any pre-made bloodline from anybody else. With, maybe, the sole exception of the foals of foundation stock being purchased and used.
In the future, our AC market horses will expand. If some of you remember the Tb's that appeared in the market, so the 'from scratch' consideration could become a much more viable and reachable project as our community expands and as our horse population expands.
So, about 'owning' a bloodline. There are multiple thoughts on this subject and even I struggle with what I believe. Private lines I struggle to claim as my own, even after multiple generations. Because I know and feel that somebody worked long and hard to bring them to a certain point before offering a crossover with my line or a sale directly to me.
For the most part, I feel that after three or four generations of breeding, it should be fair to call the foals that are produced at this point, entirely your bloodline. But some might suggest more than ten.
So, what's the correct answer?
It's in the private, personal, public development. That's what it ultimately comes down to, for me.
A line that's set up as a public one, sold freely to the public and studded just as freely, any foal born of a mare you own (regardless of if the mare was also purchased freely on the market), is your bloodline.
After all, you matched them, right?
For personal lines, I feel the right or correct answer must be either one or two generations. The foal that was born from the cross is a bloodline developed from you and also the other person. Thus, the foal's child or grandchild is only acceptable to call your own and not the foal of the cross itself. You would have to take that foal and choose the partner(s) for him or her, creating your own bloodline henceforth.
Then there's the much more sticky subject of private lines. And I've heard many different feelings on these. I even have a couple horses from a crossover (between a personal line of my own and into a private line of theirs), that I was asked to never share out.
I've also been asked to not share out some crossover's for ten generations.
For the most part, and highly-likely because of my breeding practices themselves, most of the time, when I seek and find a crossover into a personal or private bloodline, I'm only asked to keep it such for between two and four generations, not sharing them out with any other player until these generations have been born.
So, why am I asked for such a slim-lined generational request instead of much longer? Mostly, when I discuss such a question, the response is something along the lines of my practice of never overbreeding them.
And that is my breeding practices. Most of my mares and stallions may have only one or two offspring. Some may have three or four, but that's quite rare. An exceptional one may have six or seven. But that really doesn't happen, unless I'm creating an entire bloodline from a foundation horse.
So, perhaps that's the answer. Maybe there are so may private bloodlines that people are so unwilling to share, not because they're afraid that people will claim the success as their own (although this has happened and is a sticking point for some players), but because they're more aware and afraid of overbreeding and diluting the bloodline that's been honed so well.
...In fact, this is an answer I was told directly (paraphrased) by a few senior HWO members and juggernauts of our community...
In the end, the community and this game is to strive for excellence. By sharing knowledge and bloodlines, we progress in the game. Our admins have told us before that they prefer all of us to share, but will also never tell us how to play our games.
Offer your thoughts if you have some, my opinion is just one of many and by sharing opinions, we inspire our admin on new fronts for the game development.
--End--And especially remember: It is not what the other person celebrates, but the expression that you celebrate from. It's okay to say 'Merry Christmas' to another person and for them to say 'Happy Hanukkah' back to you. Because it's not about the holiday as much as it's about the spirit of the season.
For me, I stopped celebrating awhile ago, for various reasons. But I will still offer the season to those that do. Enjoy the holidays!
May all of you kick up your heels and watch the holidays sparkle!
Included in this release:
General Thoughts & Considerations
Interesting New Developments on HWO - Hints & Tips Version
General Thoughts & Considerations
Once again, this is what's on my mind. It'll be short this time, I promise.
There hasn't been too much going on around here. No problems and little in the way of questions or other work. A lot of sales have been going on; make sure you're highlighting your sales appropriately! If you need some ideas of how to do so, see this link.
Keep it up! As a community, we're doing great!
As a last note, for those of you that have been cleaning the market, there seems to have been a great impact! It looks so much more slimmer! The weight loss plan and the exercising has worked wonders on that market. For all of you that have been dedicating time, room, money and churning turns to age them out, Kudos! and Thank You! It will continue to be a challenge, but with maintenance it will remain manageable.
And that's it! For this section.
Interesting New Developments on HWO
This time, this section is dedicated to some helpful tips and hints and a start of a discussion about bloodline development.
Subsections:
Reducing Herd Size
The Search For Market Horses
Evaluating A Competition Horse
The Uses Of COI
HGP, What It Is
Bloodline Discussion
Reducing Herd Size
We all struggle with this one at some point. We either purchase a few too many from the market, breed too many favorites or find ourselves unable to get rid of a foal because it's just 'too good'.
So here's a few tips to help with reducing a herd size (through breeding) in fairly short order. Of course, depending on your herd size, this technique may be a much longer trek.
First and foremost, figure out just how many mares and how many stallions you want to eventually have. Is five mares and two stallions appropriate? Is just two mares and one stallion right? Or do you want something more like ten mares and four to six stallions? It's important to first discipline yourself to the minimum amount of mares and stallions you want. Then give yourself a couple for overage. This doesn't mean to keep ten mares when you want just two, but allow for some overage. One or two is more than enough.
Then check your herd. Evaluate the herd on what your original goal (or consecutive existing goal) is. Those that highlight your goal well, mark differently than those that are rather poor. If you can get rid of these that are 'poor', do so. If you can't, mark them as only having ONE keeper foal. Sometimes it's best to pair these up with a partner that will also have only ONE keeper foal, but because goals usually define one certain thing, the 'poor' horses usually aren't at opposite ends of the spectrum (for instance, a horse that's 12 hands and a horse that's 17 hands and you want somewhere in the 15 hands range).
All the horses you have that highlight your goal, give them an option of two foals, but ONLY if they pop good foals in the first couple breedings. For instance, if your mare pops a perfect foal in the first three breedings, try again, but only for another five times. Then, if you have two great foals from her, perfect, retire her. But if you only ever get one, then okay, you still have one and it's probably caring the best genes for your project that the mare (or the pairing) could possibly offer.
Now for the actual technique. I recommend first shrinking your herd by getting your colts under control. So use your mares as the carriers and all of you colts, only keep ONE foal from them (only the best), regardless of if it's a filly or a colt. Better if it's a healthy mix of both genders. And then, if it's a good filly that pops [retire also the mare]. You then have ONE horse from two.
Weaker mares, you should consider keeping a colt from. So when you pop a colt from a stallion and it's acceptable, also retire the mare. She gave you what you needed. This is because a colt will always be slightly better than a filly.
Once you find yourself with a lot of mares and very few stallions, then switch to tackling the mare herd. Use the same technique. This time, however, every mare that doesn't highlight what you want, schedule her for a colt (if she gives you a nice filly, that's great! retire her and keep the filly), but all of your good mares, schedule for a single filly. If any particular mare drops a perfect filly in the first two or three coverings and you want an identical one (or a perfect colt as well), feel free to try her again. But remember, every time that you allow a horse to give multiple offspring, you're INCREASING herd size and not reducing.
At this time, you're only keeping ONE foal from each pairing. You may inevitably have horses (especially stallions) that you end up keeping more than one foal from. The trick of this technique is that for the MOST part, you'll be keeping only ONE foal from each set of parents.
If you school yourself to keeping the technique [for the most part], you will be halving your herd in no time, keeping the best offspring that still reflect your primary goal and encouraging or at least not depleting the primary genes that will also reflect the progression of your goal.
When using this technique, you will likely find a bit of movement around your initial goal. It may seem like your herd is moving away in some areas or toward in others. This herd-thinning technique is not designed to move you forward in you goal, it's designed to slimline your herd to a more workable level (or reduce it enough for the project to be shelved).
The Search For Market Horses
Evaluating market horses can be tough. Even for skilled and senior members of our community. What most will first ask (when looking for themselves or when aiding another person), is 'what are the plans for the horse?' or 'are you (or I) looking for a grinder, a breeder or a competitor?'
These questions are very important ones. The second one especially, because these three categories mean different things when evaluating a horse. For sanity's sake, I won't be covering a competing horse in this section, see the next section for that.
If the answer to the question is: 'Grinder, definitely Grinder!'
Then this is a fairly straightforward search. Limit to horses over HGP 55k; has at least one colored comment (green OR gold, but not red); and if available, has high conformation stat numbers. For the most part, a healthy mix of good and great comments or also even one or two poor comments is fine. A grinder won't be slowed down much with a mix of good and bad traits. After all, the grinder will only be asked to perform in local shows and earn random day and PT drops. As long as you adhere to these few expectations, for the most part, your grinder will be adequate and earn you enough for his or her replacement when the time comes. Don't forget to budget in training if you're not training the horse yourself. As an added benefit, high HGP arabians always seem to be good, strong grinders in endurance, level 10. Although the ones floating around the market like these, make rather poor and ugly competition horses (player-made competitions) and unless breeding strictly for this look, also generally make rather poor breeders for anything else. So be aware that pretty doesn't mean great.
Now, if your answer instead is: 'Uh, breeder. I'm developing my own bloodline.'
This gets a little more complicated. First I'm going to assume you already know the breed you want and your goal. I'm also going to assume you're NOT aiming for a pre-made bloodline. What I mean by this phrase [pre-made bloodline] is a line that's already been developed to HGP 50k or higher.
Okay, so choose your breed from the drop-down menu, choose your age limitations (remember 4 year old mares and 3 year old stallions are breedable), and if you already have your goals in mind, also consider choosing height (take into account the search defines foals' born-at height and not final adult height for horses younger than 5 years). However, height can always be fixed through breeding.
I suggest leaving color empty. Since we can fill in our own color, you will be missing or also pulling up colors that fall outside of what you want.
A good base breeder will be at least HGP 25k (this is the AC lower-end standard), but a solid base generally starts at somewhere around HGP 35k to 45k (this is the AC higher-end standard and within two or three generations of AC). If you can find your horses right in this higher range, you're off to a good start. At this higher HGP range, one can expect that many of the absolute worst genes are likely already culled out, as long as these aren't base AC stock. If you choose to start from base AC stock, just keep in mind that there will be a mix of hidden good and bad genes that you will need to cull out and favor for the first few generations. This is work that is usually needed even before you start on your own project. You can easily call it 'maintenance culling'.
Look at the Breeder's Report comments. Are they a mix of both good and bad? Are there any red comments? How about green and golds?
At this stage, too many green and gold comments aren't what you want. They generally mean that the horse's conformation (body form) are carrying the horse and not the actual genes themselves. Even with two, one green and one gold comment, a horse like this is probably more fit as a grinder than a breeder. But, if you have one or two good, strong comments without color, then this horse may have some good genes in these stats, rather than strictly body conformation.
With this HGP range (35k to 45k) you should expect one or two poor comments, one good or great comment and the rest about mediocre or average. The lower range end, you can expect upward of three or even four poor comments and perhaps no good comments, just average or mediocre. Yet, keep in mind that these horses' hidden traits and genes could be well worth working with them.
Then, if you also can see the conformation scores, favor the ones with really low numbers, not high. It's not a necessity to see the scores, but it can help.
Now that you've looked through all of these, take a look at the horse's pedigree. Look back more than just a couple generations. Are any of these horses titled? Are there multiple with multiple titles? Investigate these a little further. Click their links and go to these horses. Take a look at their competition record. Do they have a lot of wins? Is their WPS (win/place/show) percentage high or low? If it looks high, click on the discipline and look at their actual discipline record. Are many of these competitions low levels? Are they high? Do some of the competitions have remarkably high point earnings? Depending on the HGP of that horse, you should consider the level of competition they should be performing at. If we keep the range that you're purchasing (35k to 45k) and pretty much anything under HGP 50k, these horses should perform okay at level five competition and lower. The lower HGP will have less abilities to pull upon then the higher ones, but generally speaking, this will be their performance levels. Once you get into the HGP 55k and upward, the competition level should be at and then above five.
If everything still checks out, or appears to be acceptable, open the progeny tab and take a quick look over the foals. Are any of these titled? Are these titled horses looking better (overall) then that parent? Are they serious overachievers that may be too good? There is generally one foal from a parent that's like this. But multiple or all that appear this way may mean that this horse is too good to be true and that you may have to make some adjustments down the road for ill-genes that still need to be worked out.
If there isn't any titled horses, that's not a big deal. Sometimes it's easier to work with and develop an unknown bloodline then to work with and fix issues that you do know. Titled pedigree just means that you have some more information to diagnose potential problems with.
However, as a last note, the stats that don't matter to your goal (for instance, any stat outside of the competition you want to develop), remember that they don't matter as a breeder either. So if you're not focusing on speed, then a really high speed comment with a high speed score isn't necessary or unnecessary, it can be entirely dismissed at whatever status it has. That being said, if you're aiming for a log-puller, then such a comment will also describe a lightweight horse. In this case, this might factor in to your search. But remember again, incorrect body form can be fixed IF the horse has everything else that's just perfect.
In the end, practically any horse can start a bloodline and such a bloodline can be turned into a success. It's all about time, patience and culling practices.
Evaluating A Competition Horse
Now for the final one.
If your answer is instead: 'Yeah... I want to enter a horse in every competition available! Or, just find a good one that makes me some money.'
This is a bit taller of an order. Generally speaking, a good competition horse is also a good breeder. But a good breeder may make a terrible competition horse. And sometimes a great competition horse ends up never throwing a worthwhile foal.
So, generally speaking, you want very similar things that you would look for in a breeder with a few exceptions.
For a competition horse (or a competition horse prospect, meaning, nominally, it's untrained), you want to focus on an HGP range of 55k to 65k. You want to favor horses that have a healthy mix of positive and strong Breeder Report comments and (if you can see it) a healthy (but not necessary high) number collection of conformation stat scores. The higher HGP you go, the slightly higher conformation scores you want. And take particular notice of the corresponding comment and comment color. If you're looking at a 20 to 39 conformation score, you'll want a positive and upward comment and color. 35 to 45, that comment should be green. 40 and upward, you're aiming for gold.
Why is there so much overlap? Because a great competitor may have a stronger color in one stat and a slightly not-so-strong one in another. So there is a bit of give and take.
And, of course, consider what the horse is designed for. Medium and lighter horses are best for quicker disciplines. Medium and heavier horses are best for horses that require sheer strength or sturdy-style competitions (a horse that won't shy easily, essentially).
So horse's that are lightweight should be favoring stats like speed, movement, balance and agility. And a heavy horse you should see stronger stat structures most generally in strength and stamina.
So what about the medium horses? You know, like quarter horses that are neither light or heavy?
These type of horses (most obviously for the western-style disciplines but not restricted to them) should favor such stats like intelligence and agility.
Seeing some more overlap?
And additional questions?
Like, for instance, where do the other stats fit? This isn't an all-encompassing overview of where the stats fit best in which body form. This is where the most heavily used stats fit in with the disciplines the most and are paired with the body form that's 'best' for that discipline. Which also means I just gave you a generalized guide of the stats that a person should see improving when breeding to certain body-styles.
Remember, a body style doesn't restrict a horse into (or out of) a particular discipline. A horse with an exceptional heart gene can succeed in a vast range of disciplines. These are 'Specialty Generalization' competition-style horses (versus the 'Specialized' competition horse). Such horses may not break records or even regularly beat specialized horses, but with a much wider range, these horses can be bred into specialties and also have a wider earnings ratio, especially when one particular discipline is too hot to tackle at any given time.
And perhaps one of the most important evaluators when looking for a good competition horse or a good prospect horse, is pedigree. You will want to see at least one titled pedigree horse and hopefully it's a parent or grandparent. More is great! None means that you're simply dealing with an unknown and you'll be rolling the dice. You could get a record holder, or you could get one that flops.
Now, take a look at the titled horses, review the competitions that have the best WPS. Look at the point earnings, take note of competitions that appear to have way too many points and also take note of the scores earned. They should be competitive and closing in on record holding scores, IF the discipline is 'hot'. Likewise, if at any given time, the discipline is 'cold' they should be consistently earning scores on the higher end of the current results. So a potentially 'weaker' competition horse can still be quite successful and a high earner.
And take a look, briefly, at the foals of these titled parents. Are many competitive? Is there a difference between the fillies and the colts? Are any of their WPS close to that parent? Do they do better in other disciplines than that parent? Are the scores near, surpassing or holding steady compared to that parent?
The good competitors and competitor prospects will have siblings that are close-to or on par with that titled parent. Overall, their 'on-paper' stats (these include BR, scores and overall body look) should resemble that parent with only a little discrepancy. And finally, does the horse that's available for purchase look similar to his or her siblings?
If overall, you feel this horse comes close to many of these highlights, you probably have a strong chance of having a good competitor or prospect on your hands.
And briefly, if the horse you're interested in, already has a record, also review this. Sometimes more importantly than pedigree performance, a horse's actual performance is incredibly telling. If such a horse has a record, you will need to also take note of temperament (was the horse entered or likely entered at the right temperament?) and body weight (was he or she too fat, most likely, at the time of entering?).
Also, could it be that this horse just wasn't entered into an appropriate discipline (body form and stats may indicate a better one)? A strong WPS may have been tainted by low level competitions or a false-pointing to artificially boost the scores. So it's also important to take a look at the actual discipline records and give them an once-over to ferret out any fishiness.
But if the horse still looks good, then you may have found the horse you're looking for. If you have additional questions, feel free to leave a comment or question, or also open your own topic in the questions forum (if it's a discussion, it may be better in the General Chit Chat forum).
The Uses Of COI
First, a short definition.
COI stands for the Coefficient Of Inbreeding. What this means is (essentially) the amount of genes or the number of related bloodline that's been duplicated in the horse's pedigree for seven generations.
Inbreeding (as of yet) has no negative consequences on this game. In the future, this is still planned to change where 'general unsoundness' will be implemented for inbred horses. To what extent and at what percentage this will affect our horses, we do not yet know.
But you said 'the uses of COI', can it be useful? You see, it's right there, in the title. Yes, it is. And, yes, it can be. There are a few ways that manipulating COI can be helpful to breeding.
Very simply, you will be duplicating genes by breeding siblings together or parents to children. Culling becomes easier because unwanted genes are wiped out in only one or two generations and precise color development is enhanced. But also, certain things (like color development) can easily start exponentially increasing because you're 'doubling down' on the genes.
So. If you want to 'set' a gene. First you have to find it. Good speed, for instance, with a great comment, gold color and high conformation score. By breeding such a horse to a parent or a sibling, the resulting foal will either reveal a better collection of speed stats or worse. Worse gets culled, better gets saved. Such a foal is then bred back to either parent, OR a sibling (either half or full) is bred and these two are bred together. Then from this point, the family tree no longer branches. Foals that come out wrong are culled and full siblings are bred back together. After only a couple generations, remarkably similar foals will start to pop with the occasional oddly whimsical or scary unexpected one. By culling these oddities out and favoring the others, the last of the unwanted genes are virtually eradicated.
This is the way a gene can be 'set'. Under certain circumstances, these genes will carry through when breeding out, remaining strong, simply because there are no poorer genes to pass onward (you've already culled them out). You will keep your bloodline as it is, eventually creating carbon copies (somewhere around 75% COI this will start to happen).
But there is also a downside.
You will be limiting the upward growth of your genes as well. Eventually, you will simply have no more upward ability because you culled out all the excess genes.
So by inbreeding, you can boost your bloodline forward in great strides, quickly ridding your herd of unwanted genes and doubling over the genes you want to favor, but you're also beginning the long process of limiting and eventually plateauing the growth of your bloodline. Your carbon-copy horses eventually actually become carbon-copies (insofar as HWO will allow).
Okay, I get the usefulness of early inbreeding, but by limiting it to a number of generations until I'm pleased with the result, how do I get it back under control? Of course by adding new blood. Either, early on, save a couple horses from your own bloodline to breed back to (remember COI only takes into account the last seven generations), OR use an outside bloodline you're satisfied with. A grade horse is very useful in this situation if you don't want to or didn't save a couple early horses.
Alright, so if it's so handy to inbreed horses early, why would anybody want to avoid it? Other than the obvious desire to not breed a sister to a brother or a father to a daughter or a mother to a son, by limiting or not utilizing inbreeding at all, a bloodline does take longer to develop. Unwanted genes don't always come forward until many generations into it. Desirable genes develop slowly (usually).
Not yet sounding like much benefit yet, I know, read on.
There will always be an influx of new, unknown genes, so there is no plateauing of the bloodline and weird foal outcomes (because of the highlight of oddities, like super long ears or a teacup nose on a belgian face) don't generally happen. Such a bloodline will also (generally speaking) almost always breed out well (except to high COI bloodlines which are hit and miss). And the development of a low or no COI bloodline will eventually set their genes in such a way that they'll highlight their good genes more regularly during outcrosses.
Essentially, once a low or no COI line is developed, they have much greater growth prospect with much less negative consequences than a high COI line.
So... can I marriage the two techniques together? Yes. By utilizing the first one (high COI) in primary breeding and then working to seize back COI to more manageable levels, one can create a productive or mass-produce a baseline bloodline and then develop and hone the bloodline toward lower COI levels and long-term utilization.
And, since I'm getting into it, taking back COI control and also controlling COI over the long-haul utilize the same technique. By utilizing such a technique, you will be able to eventually lower and control COI at or under about 25%.
Okay! Stop talking about it and tell me what it is! ... You will, won't you? It's not, like, a secret or something?
No, it's no secret. But sometimes it takes a bit of explaining to get a handle on it. So, hopefully, you'll understand it on the first go around.You will need three stallions (at least two) OR three mares (at least two). Or some combination therein. It's suggested that these three horses are not related or at least are not related closely. So a grandparent is fine, but not two grandchildren. An aunt is probably too close. So your choice horses will need to be a couple generations removed from each other IF you choose to save some from your own bloodline.
By saving from your own bloodline, you can control the injection of known genes into your herd and you'll be pulling away less from your ultimate goals.
Plus, you will want to eventually replace these horses on a semi-regular basis. Not all the time, just as your herd improves, take a really great horse that either is producing well or is prime for your ultimate goals and replace one of the out-crossing ones with that horse. This keeps your ultimate goal in mind and keeps you moving forward meanwhile you're still controlling your COI.
In this case, it's best if you have your own freezable account, so you can access these horses when you need to. But hiring or boarding at another account is also good. As long as these horses are available to you over the longer haul of your project (many generations worth).
Now, reevaluate these horses for close relationships. If they are, is there a better option for one of them? If not, continue forward.
Label them as #1, #2, #3 (up to five, but you won't really need any more than four). This is the order you will go back to breed to. #1 will be bred to first. For the next round, you will breed to #2. For the following round it will be #3. Then when you reach the final horse (be that #3, #4 or #5), you will then return to #1 and start again. It is important that you do not skip through these numbers. Label them and use them in order and don't change this order.
For the first round, you will choose two partners from your main herd to breed to #1. If you have a very large herd, choose up to five. But keeping it less with a herd that has a population that's still under control will make managing the COI project easier. When acceptable foals pop, label them so you know they're outcrossed (#1 foal).
Do Not make the mistake of breeding #1 foals together. If you can manage it, don't breed #1 foals' foals together. These #1 foals are to be bred to chosen partners (whichever you determine would make best matches) to others in your main herd. You don't need to keep many offspring. One or two is more than enough.
So, now you have bred parent to outcross #1 and produced #1 foals.
#1 foals are all grown up and have produced #1 foal babies (now named Baby Lot).
Baby Lot are all grown up and producing foals for themselves (now named Primary).
When Primary are all grown up and ready for breeding (this is the third generation), we return to outcross and breed to #2.
#2 Does Not need to be bred to any Primary. #2 can be bred to any of your main herd you want. If using grade horses, I recommend not breeding any outcross grade to any non-purebred from your herd. I would also recommend that in your herd, you will only breed a purebred to a mix and not a mix to a mix. Grade outcrosses are extremely helpful and won't slow you down by much. In fact, it may even help you keep tallies on which horses are ready and available to be bred to outcrosses.
Repeat the whole process with #2 and when #2 Primary are all grown up, return and repeat the whole process for #3.
When you hit the end of your saved outcrosses, return to #1 and continue repeating the process. This will start to halve and diminish your COI in relatively short order. It will start in one area of your main herd and expand. This will also not fundamentally change the baseline of your herd, because you're injecting the outcross lines only a little at a time. By using your own saved bloodline, you will diminish this chance even more.
Uh, okay. That might take a bit of practice to get a handle on it though. At risk of making myself more confused, are there different tactics for this process? Yes. If you have more saved outcrosses, you can cut your generations down to two, instead of three, so you'd be breeding back to #2 with Baby Lot instead of Primary. Large herds can also handle this tactic if you're favoring less outcrosses. So if you breed only two or three parents to #1 and keep only those two or three foals, then by doing so every two generations, you will still be controlling COI.
However, you may need to use four or even five outcrosses to ensure your outcrosses aren't showing up in the seven generation COI.
Also, in smaller main herds, you may only want to outcross once and keep one foal. But in this case #1 foal will need to produce and you will need to keep two Baby Lot's.
I don't recommend in small herds to use the two-generation tactic, unless you have four outcross horses to do so.
I... uh... am confused a bit, but I think practicing it will help clear it up. But, you said that the outcrosses should be replaced eventually. When would that happen? Nominally when you have one that trumps one of the outcrosses by a good bit. But also remember that it should then be the last in the line for use. So if you're on #1 and you're replacing #1 with a new one, then the new one should become #4 and you would simply have no #1 (or, if you can handle it, #2 becomes #1 and #3 becomes #2 and the new one then becomes #3). For the first use of the new replacement, you may see very little COI control movement. And this is simply because the horse is still too new and could share pedigree horses with the current horses in your herd.
Don't worry, just be picky that you don't breed the new outcross to a direct parent or sibling (or even grandparent) and you will be good to continue.
Also, when you replace horses, make sure you only replace One Per Revolution. This will ensure that none of the replacements are closely related and that none of the new outcrosses are suddenly within seven generations of your current herd.
This means you will replace one horse and go entirely through the rest (#1, #2, and #3), use the new outcross and then see about replacing one of the others with another outcross prospect.
This is assuming you're keeping and replacing using your own bloodline.
If you're using outcrosses you're purchasing from the market, you only need to ensure the horses you purchase have a COI somewhere at or under 60%. The lower, the better. I generally recommend no higher than 50%. But by purchasing a COI horse with 55%, you will still produce foals at about 26%-27% COI minimum and you can limit the genes that are coming in (note back to the first discussion on the usefulness of inbreeding to cull out unwanted genes).
HGP, What It Is
An excerpt of an answer I offered in the forums:
[quote]First, a short history note. A number of years ago, we didn't have HGP [Horse Genetic Potential]. We only had the breeder's report and the conformation scores. Because of some discussions among the community and with admin, admin decided to reveal the HGP for us. It already existed, we just weren't able to see it.
Now, for the actuality.
Horse Genetic Potential is the hard number of all of the gene's hard numbers AND ALSO the conformation scores hard numbers all added together. Basically speaking, the more numbers you have the more genes and higher confo scores you'll have and the more greens and golds you'll have. That's not the stop-all, end-all of it, but basically, that's what it boils down to.[/quote]
What this means is that the higher the HGP number a horse has, the more genes it has and the more hidden potential the horse COULD have.
But just because a horse has a really high HGP number, doesn't mean such a horse is the best horse to have on HWO.
First, one must ask: What, my my mind makes a 'best' horse on a game?
Such a question can have many answers on HWO. On other games, it's usually a horse that dominates in a discipline. But on HWO, there are many ways to be considered a top player and being on the top leaderboards doesn't always matter to us (the players).
So, what's the answer to such a question, for you? Before I answer this question on my personal opinion, first let me tackle the more general one of: So what does HGP mean to a horse that is a great competitor? What's the connection?
A great competition horse isn't determined by a top HGP score. Most of our best and record holding horses have high but rather mediocre HGP scores when you realize the top HGP scores a horse can actually have on the game (in some cases, a difference of 20k points). Top HGP does have a firm cap, but it's yet unknown. It's somewhere in the 80k area (this has been debated however).
This is because a competition horse has hidden values that affect the horse in addition to the hard HGP numbers. And, to frustrate you further, these hidden values are NOT counted in the HGP at all.
Isn't admin just loving us??? Actually, it's designed this way to ensure there are multiple ways to succeed here and to ensure that the best looking horses aren't also the best at literally everything as well.With that being said, hard HGP values DO factor in to a horse's ability to compete. A horse with the best hidden competition talents and little overall HGP, just can't compete when up against a horse with a high HGP and no hidden competition talents. But that difference can still be 20k HGP points, depending on how all the hidden traits roll out, overall training and how the base stats interact with one another. And of course, the roll of the randomness factor as well as a couple other minor factors.
A mediocre horse on its best day can beat a great horse on its worst. The game is made to be an even playing field and to keep things fair.
So the more HGP a horse has does not also equate to being the best. It could but is (at this point in time) exceptionally rare, even so to being unknown.
So, now back to the other question, what, in my personal opinion, makes a 'best' horse on HWO? In fact, my answer is: A horse that has it all! One that is a good, strong competitor (but isn't necessarily a record holder), that also has a good 'on-paper' look (high HGP, but not necessarily maxed; good, strong conformation scores and equivalent Breeder Report comments with appropriate colors) and that's also a reliable and strong breeder. I also prefer a 'Specialized Generalist' over a 'Specialty' competitor. And, of course, color. The horse needs to be from a developed color line. One that's been bred to carry whatever color most desirable, whether that's a plain bay or a pintaloosa.
In my mind, development of a bloodline is the pathway to success. Even if the bloodline never goes anywhere special, by finishing such a project, a player can consider themselves successful and most generally, the community will also see it as a success.
(And pay the prices for it as well)So... to return to the earlier excerpt:
[quote]In summary, HGP is a hard value telling us the hard numbers (genes and conformation scores) that make a horse. But they can't tell us competition talent or competition ability of our horses.[/quote]
Nor can such a thing tell us the success of the players in the game itself. Breeding strictly for top HGP is a success in and of itself, but only tells us so much and such horses still have a lot of unknowns.
Bloodline Discussion
First, let me say, this may be a delicate or touchy subject. Second, feel free to post comments, questions and you're own thoughts below. Any strong reflections or pertinent opinions, I'll add them to a saved reply just below this primary one with further discussion, my own responses and other well-worded responses if and where appropriate. And if this does grow into a full-fledged discussion, so be it.
Feel free to continue such a discussion here until it's finality. So, I'll begin with a few probing questions to help stir the thoughts.
Is there a difference between a private bloodline and a personal bloodline?
What does it mean [to you] when somebody says 'developed from scratch'?
At what point does another person's bloodline becomes the new owner's bloodline?
Here are my thoughts on these subjects.
First, I do feel there is a bit of a difference between a private bloodline and a personal bloodline. In my opinion, a private one is rarely or never offered out to anybody else. I also hold the concept that such a bloodline is built from AC stock.
Such a line is designed to not be offered to the public at large at any real point in time, but may have future use in certain semi-private instances, like for a club or contest.
A personal bloodline, in my opinion, is one that's most likely purchased from an already established or started one from the market. Often times, I feel that these lines serve a working purpose, like grinder production or proof-of-theory. Such lines aren't often shared, but it's not really because it's not wanted to be shared, but more so because there's little real use for the rest of the community. An example of this might be producing a rare (mostly unwanted or uninterested) breed to get to a resulting breed that you want. Once established, the rare breed you used to get to your final breed is aged out, this would be a prime example of a personal bloodline, in my opinion.
A bloodline built 'from scratch', to me, is saying, very strictly, that it's straight from AC stock and not utilizing any pre-made bloodline from anybody else. With, maybe, the sole exception of the foals of foundation stock being purchased and used.
In the future, our AC market horses will expand. If some of you remember the Tb's that appeared in the market, so the 'from scratch' consideration could become a much more viable and reachable project as our community expands and as our horse population expands.
So, about 'owning' a bloodline. There are multiple thoughts on this subject and even I struggle with what I believe. Private lines I struggle to claim as my own, even after multiple generations. Because I know and feel that somebody worked long and hard to bring them to a certain point before offering a crossover with my line or a sale directly to me.
For the most part, I feel that after three or four generations of breeding, it should be fair to call the foals that are produced at this point, entirely your bloodline. But some might suggest more than ten.
So, what's the correct answer?
It's in the private, personal, public development. That's what it ultimately comes down to, for me.
A line that's set up as a public one, sold freely to the public and studded just as freely, any foal born of a mare you own (regardless of if the mare was also purchased freely on the market), is your bloodline.
After all, you matched them, right?
For personal lines, I feel the right or correct answer must be either one or two generations. The foal that was born from the cross is a bloodline developed from you and also the other person. Thus, the foal's child or grandchild is only acceptable to call your own and not the foal of the cross itself. You would have to take that foal and choose the partner(s) for him or her, creating your own bloodline henceforth.
Then there's the much more sticky subject of private lines. And I've heard many different feelings on these. I even have a couple horses from a crossover (between a personal line of my own and into a private line of theirs), that I was asked to never share out.
I've also been asked to not share out some crossover's for ten generations.
For the most part, and highly-likely because of my breeding practices themselves, most of the time, when I seek and find a crossover into a personal or private bloodline, I'm only asked to keep it such for between two and four generations, not sharing them out with any other player until these generations have been born.
So, why am I asked for such a slim-lined generational request instead of much longer? Mostly, when I discuss such a question, the response is something along the lines of my practice of never overbreeding them.
And that is my breeding practices. Most of my mares and stallions may have only one or two offspring. Some may have three or four, but that's quite rare. An exceptional one may have six or seven. But that really doesn't happen, unless I'm creating an entire bloodline from a foundation horse.
So, perhaps that's the answer. Maybe there are so may private bloodlines that people are so unwilling to share, not because they're afraid that people will claim the success as their own (although this has happened and is a sticking point for some players), but because they're more aware and afraid of overbreeding and diluting the bloodline that's been honed so well.
...In fact, this is an answer I was told directly (paraphrased) by a few senior HWO members and juggernauts of our community...
In the end, the community and this game is to strive for excellence. By sharing knowledge and bloodlines, we progress in the game. Our admins have told us before that they prefer all of us to share, but will also never tell us how to play our games.
Offer your thoughts if you have some, my opinion is just one of many and by sharing opinions, we inspire our admin on new fronts for the game development.
Don't forget to check it out!
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BlackOak2
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Re: Community Reminder - Holiday 2021
Held.
Don't forget to check it out!
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ImaCountryGirl
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Re: Community Reminder - Holiday 2021
Wow, this is a great post and gives me a lot to think about. Thank you BlackOak2, and Happy Holidays to you and yours and to everyone else on HWO
and to everyone else on HWO"Make Hay While The Sun Shines"
