LETS TALK: Bad Breeding In Game

[Lehiy]

Totally agreed AHAH someone could love him for his shape and stats, but he just looked a little scary to me when I first figured out that it wasn't weight

And yeah, I've seen heaps of horses look totally different with weight gain, some look like nothing had changed. Would be cool to see if somebody tested it out, figured out the root of a lot of the conformation and general build questions the community has.

AND LOL YEAH, I rely on my freeze so much I don't know what I'd do without it

Yeah, a guide would be nice. Perhaps a senior player could tackle that in the future (If they haven't already)? I'm not too good with information regarding areas around conformation, but I know a good lot of players that would.

Yup. Sway backs are usually a newborn foal's normal. Just age them a bit and it'll fix itself. Either that or a horse that is super thin and a sway back appears because of neglect (Same in real life). I've never personally met a horse with a dipping back, but I think I remember a photo somewhere...

Yeah, I wouldn't know enough about the game I think to take on that sort of task, but agreed, would love a guide.

And yeah, usually I'm not worried about foals since I trust the parents, I've had one real mutation of sorts and that was a miniature arabian that then founded a huge miniature arabian line- so he was a success HAHA

Unfortunately we have a lot of sway back horses locally. Some obviously swayback, some just getting into it at around 15 or so, most still get ridden. Our area is dominated by a lot of western riders who despise other sports and can't actually ride well enough to prevent swayback early, and just generally don't care particularly about the welfare of their animals. I think thats mostly why weird conformation in game freaks me out?? It always looks like something I'd see in real life that never really ends well, I suppose

[Gabby_Woodlark]

Yeah, a guide would be nice. Perhaps a senior player could tackle that in the future (If they haven't already)? I'm not too good with information regarding areas around conformation, but I know a good lot of players that would.

Yup. Sway backs are usually a newborn foal's normal. Just age them a bit and it'll fix itself. Either that or a horse that is super thin and a sway back appears because of neglect (Same in real life). I've never personally met a horse with a dipping back, but I think I remember a photo somewhere...

Yeah, I wouldn't know enough about the game I think to take on that sort of task, but agreed, would love a guide.

And yeah, usually I'm not worried about foals since I trust the parents, I've had one real mutation of sorts and that was a miniature arabian that then founded a huge miniature arabian line- so he was a success HAHA

Unfortunately we have a lot of sway back horses locally. Some obviously swayback, some just getting into it at around 15 or so, most still get ridden. Our area is dominated by a lot of western riders who despise other sports and can't actually ride well enough to prevent swayback early, and just generally don't care particularly about the welfare of their animals. I think thats mostly why weird conformation in game freaks me out?? It always looks like something I'd see in real life that never really ends well, I suppose

Oof, that sucks.

Whenever someone on YT or TT or something says "Bro western riders don't care about their horses at all they use whips and spurs and-" Like bro- I've been a western fan ever since I started riding. It's more comfy and the disciplines are easier and personally more enjoyable.

Like, only some peeps that go all-out in Western, with the completed shoes, hat, shirt, jeans, or/and spurs can be the rare few that don't care about their mounts. I don't like Barrel Racing for that reason. All you do is whip the poor horse and jab it with your spurs until it is in so much fear and pain it starts running for its life.

I used to do the Reining and trail stuff on lesson horses. That's enjoyable and teaches teamwork and bonding. Barrel Racing and Racing just matter on how fast and hard you can hurt your horse.

(Dont mind me hijacking and going on a rant that people will most likely argue over)

[Lehiy]

Yeah, I wouldn't know enough about the game I think to take on that sort of task, but agreed, would love a guide.

And yeah, usually I'm not worried about foals since I trust the parents, I've had one real mutation of sorts and that was a miniature arabian that then founded a huge miniature arabian line- so he was a success HAHA

Unfortunately we have a lot of sway back horses locally. Some obviously swayback, some just getting into it at around 15 or so, most still get ridden. Our area is dominated by a lot of western riders who despise other sports and can't actually ride well enough to prevent swayback early, and just generally don't care particularly about the welfare of their animals. I think thats mostly why weird conformation in game freaks me out?? It always looks like something I'd see in real life that never really ends well, I suppose

Oof, that sucks.

Whenever someone on YT or TT or something says "Bro western riders don't care about their horses at all they use whips and spurs and-" Like bro- I've been a western fan ever since I started riding. It's more comfy and the disciplines are easier and personally more enjoyable.

Like, only some peeps that go all-out in Western, with the completed shoes, hat, shirt, jeans, or/and spurs can be the rare few that don't care about their mounts. I don't like Barrel Racing for that reason. All you do is whip the poor horse and jab it with your spurs until it is in so much fear and pain it starts running for its life.

I used to do the Reining and trail stuff on lesson horses. That's enjoyable and teaches teamwork and bonding. Barrel Racing and Racing just matter on how fast and hard you can hurt your horse.

(Dont mind me hijacking and going on a rant that people will most likely argue over)

Same! Totally agreed!

Personally, I'm an english rider. All my horses however generally begin english due to it being fairly simple to begin with, then they'll spend a few months western before going back to english. Personally, I simply enjoy english disciplines more! I've always been super eager and confident with horses, so the idea of jumping doesn't scare me in the slightest, and I enjoy the focus on fitness and partnership that dressage brings (of course, not that they're the only disciplines)

I feel like western riders are grouped up heaps, and while both "sides" have bad eggs it's just wrong to say that the whole side is bad. I can agree with barrel racing being usually quite aggressive without a horses physical and mental state in mind, as well as plenty of other disciplines! While there definitely ARE good ways to do it, they, like most english disciplines, are dangerous regardless and require a lot of time, care and understanding to do even somewhat safely.

Due to where I live, we're surrounded by a number of sports that are plain unethical or dare I say brain dead. Most riders can't actually ride safely and properly, and if they can they're often belittled by other riders who are more reckless. We see a lot of horror stories around here, unfortunately.

Big trigger warning for blood and general mistreatment, but for a reference;
Theres a girl a bout a year or two older than me, who's been "rescuing" off the track thoroughbreds for years. I believe that atleast three of them have been sent to abattoirs, and we all know how unethical and dangerous they are. Thats after she breaks them down though, each of them she's run into the ground literally in most cases in her pursuit of a barrel racing career. One horse, who wasn't sent to an abottoir, lasted probably the longest out of all of them. He was with her for a few years, and in that time I didn't know her well enough to hear about him until it was too late. A few years was about 5 or so? Each was packed with full on schedules, her lack of knowledge and care and her general mistreatment towards him, and her other horses, that I wont go into. Basically, somehow this horse stayed in once piece this whole time. There's a couple gruesome stories, about him being shown off to local western riders. A friend of mine, who barrel races gently for fun and would call themselves a western rider saw him run barrels, and at the end his hooves were damaged from the ground enough to cause bleeding, likely from something he stepped on. To give you an idea of how good this poor horse was, he ran the whole set anyways. He died just last year, and the girl said it was a snake bite, though I'm not sure. Regardless, he died on their property, and wasn't removed from where he died. I believe he was just barely 10, or so.

Trigger warning over we get a lot of that around here, and I've just decided that it's a mostly regional way of thinking because you nearly never find that sort of treatment in bigger equestrian spaces. However, I will go as far as to say that a large portion of the barrel racing community, that I'm aware of, is harmful to their horses in one way or another. Just as most extreme disciplines are, of course, but I'd go as far as to saying that perhaps it's worse. Personally, I've never met a barrel racer who knew the girl, or even heard the story, that saw it as a tragic end to an excellent horse who was put through too much.

CONTINUING ON FROM THAT UPSETTING STORY AHA- I feel a lot of disciplines need a lot of change, of course :/ as so much is still bad, but I'm not sure when or if we'll get that sort of change.

[BlackOak2]

Not necessarily just looks, but I'd say at least 99% of the ones I picked up yesterday, which was likely upwards of 20, just had bad breeding overall. Of course, there's exceptions, and I totally agree with what you said! I've just found the majority that physically look a little behind the mark often are a sign of bad breeding, and it usually comes from newer players being unable to access well bred horses!

I also think that it's become a pretty applaudable result when a horse not only is physically above most others but looks healthy and without issue, if they were to be put in the real world, so in the event that I was just talking about conformation and wasn't considering the actual breeding of these horses, which I should have cleared up that I wasn't haha, I feel even then it's still a something to talk about!

It could also be a good goal in future for the game to create more realistic conformation systems? Though it would cause issue, I'm sure, I'd love to see it play a bigger factor in the worth of a horse like it does in the real world! Something else to discuss, I suppose haha

You're not the only one that thinks like that. In fact, a lot of the senior players do try to breed for looking either like the breed in real life suggests, or like some ideal in their head meanwhile maintaining good competition results. Actually, in either instance, the horses from such breeding do look quite nice overall.

And... definitely training them makes a HUGE difference in their ugly factors. For the most part.

COI doesn't help either. I'll often use the word 'ugly' [at least to myself] when I see a horse with high COI as well. Unless they were bred to a certain goal, such as making a body 'look' more uniform throughout a herd. Etc.

Actually, I think the conformation system as it is, is fairly realistic now. Granted, going too far does result in conformationally poor horses - at least in real life, after all, when a horse is constantly sitting on it's butt, how can it actually walk forward with any strength?
But the conformation values and areas that they come from in-game, is basically where 'we' understand such an area does affect the horse in real life. As a good example, the point-of-shoulder (often thought of as a single unit as shoulder angle) and combined with the withers/shoulder angle directly affects the movement of the horse {at least the movement of the front end).

A lot of thought did go into where and how the conformation areas should be and should affect the horse. Of course, the adverse to this (is that the right word? ) is that this is a game and it allows us to push certain things far further than real life and nature ever intended. And without consequences currently.

***
Oh, and after reading a number of the replies, the hip angle is often the culprit for ugly hind ends. This is almost always fixed by training. Get some training muscle on them and it fills out that ugly hindquarter.
***

Barrel Racing and Racing just matter on how fast and hard you can hurt your horse.

This statement can cause a lot of issues around here, I haven't yet finished reading the rest of the replies, but I need to add this in right now.
This statement is simply Not True. Although there are a number of people that do this, or believe this is how to train a horse in such a sport, the best horses that perform in these sports are not running because of fear or pain.
A horse that is panicking and running from fear or from pain isn't a horse that can be controlled by a rider on their back. Plus, a horse that is pushed too far will end up either fighting back or being permanently broken. One results in an unridable horse and the other results in a horse that has no life behind the eyes.

If you want to understand a horse that is fearful or hurting, look for the whites of the eyes. It's not a tell-all, but a horse that shows a lot of white around their eyeball is telling you that they're in a high state of emotion. Often times, when paired with other tell-tale signs, such as throwing their head around, rearing up, baring their teeth, etc, you'll know better that the horse is in some sort of discomfort, whether that's fear, pain or something else.

Before you condemn an entire sport, at least do yourself a favor and learn both sides of the fight.

I can agree with barrel racing being usually quite aggressive without a horses physical and mental state in mind, as well as plenty of other disciplines!

^ Much more like what it is.
It's more about how the rider is trained [or NOT trained] and how the horse is treated. Rider ignorance is the ender of horses in a lot of instances, not necessarily poor handling. But the one concludes into the other.

If people were more informed about the horse and how to handle them, then the horse wouldn't suffer the ignorance of humans.

***

Those that ride horses in the right ways will likely always fight those that are ignorant about how to handle horses AND those that only end up [SEEING] the latter. The rest of us sit on the sidelines and do our best to run interference that the horses aren't the victims. -_-

***

[Lehiy]

Not necessarily just looks, but I'd say at least 99% of the ones I picked up yesterday, which was likely upwards of 20, just had bad breeding overall. Of course, there's exceptions, and I totally agree with what you said! I've just found the majority that physically look a little behind the mark often are a sign of bad breeding, and it usually comes from newer players being unable to access well bred horses!

I also think that it's become a pretty applaudable result when a horse not only is physically above most others but looks healthy and without issue, if they were to be put in the real world, so in the event that I was just talking about conformation and wasn't considering the actual breeding of these horses, which I should have cleared up that I wasn't haha, I feel even then it's still a something to talk about!

It could also be a good goal in future for the game to create more realistic conformation systems? Though it would cause issue, I'm sure, I'd love to see it play a bigger factor in the worth of a horse like it does in the real world! Something else to discuss, I suppose haha

You're not the only one that thinks like that. In fact, a lot of the senior players do try to breed for looking either like the breed in real life suggests, or like some ideal in their head meanwhile maintaining good competition results. Actually, in either instance, the horses from such breeding do look quite nice overall.

And... definitely training them makes a HUGE difference in their ugly factors. For the most part.

COI doesn't help either. I'll often use the word 'ugly' [at least to myself] when I see a horse with high COI as well. Unless they were bred to a certain goal, such as making a body 'look' more uniform throughout a herd. Etc.

Actually, I think the conformation system as it is, is fairly realistic now. Granted, going too far does result in conformationally poor horses - at least in real life, after all, when a horse is constantly sitting on it's butt, how can it actually walk forward with any strength?
But the conformation values and areas that they come from in-game, is basically where 'we' understand such an area does affect the horse in real life. As a good example, the point-of-shoulder (often thought of as a single unit as shoulder angle) and combined with the withers/shoulder angle directly affects the movement of the horse {at least the movement of the front end).

A lot of thought did go into where and how the conformation areas should be and should affect the horse. Of course, the adverse to this (is that the right word? ) is that this is a game and it allows us to push certain things far further than real life and nature ever intended. And without consequences currently.

***
Oh, and after reading a number of the replies, the hip angle is often the culprit for ugly hind ends. This is almost always fixed by training. Get some training muscle on them and it fills out that ugly hindquarter.
***

Barrel Racing and Racing just matter on how fast and hard you can hurt your horse.

This statement can cause a lot of issues around here, I haven't yet finished reading the rest of the replies, but I need to add this in right now.
This statement is simply Not True. Although there are a number of people that do this, or believe this is how to train a horse in such a sport, the best horses that perform in these sports are not running because of fear or pain.
A horse that is panicking and running from fear or from pain isn't a horse that can be controlled by a rider on their back. Plus, a horse that is pushed too far will end up either fighting back or being permanently broken. One results in an unridable horse and the other results in a horse that has no life behind the eyes.

If you want to understand a horse that is fearful or hurting, look for the whites of the eyes. It's not a tell-all, but a horse that shows a lot of white around their eyeball is telling you that they're in a high state of emotion. Often times, when paired with other tell-tale signs, such as throwing their head around, rearing up, baring their teeth, etc, you'll know better that the horse is in some sort of discomfort, whether that's fear, pain or something else.

Before you condemn an entire sport, at least do yourself a favor and learn both sides of the fight.

I can agree with barrel racing being usually quite aggressive without a horses physical and mental state in mind, as well as plenty of other disciplines!

^ Much more like what it is.
It's more about how the rider is trained [or NOT trained] and how the horse is treated. Rider ignorance is the ender of horses in a lot of instances, not necessarily poor handling. But the one concludes into the other.

If people were more informed about the horse and how to handle them, then the horse wouldn't suffer the ignorance of humans.

***

Those that ride horses in the right ways will likely always fight those that are ignorant about how to handle horses AND those that only end up [SEEING] the latter. The rest of us sit on the sidelines and do our best to run interference that the horses aren't the victims. -_-

***

Totally agree with the first statement! I've got a lot of high COI still in my lines from my time as an unexperienced naive player, and I'm working hard to deal with it. At the same time, I've recently abandoned and rehomed years of foals due to them not physically looking like the breed in real life, in fact, I had two colts decently trained who I re homed just because of that (probably a bad choice, but i was upset at the time ) I really think it's a good goal to try to reach!!

Also, I had no idea that training could change a horse so much?!? THANKYOU

-

I agreed with you, and I should have pointed that out! My personal opinion is that Barrel Racing IS dangerous, yes, but I also think it's safe to say that almost every discipline is. I had to come to terms with that, personally, when I started to really think about horse welfare rather than my own satisfaction. I believe that, as an english rider who's taken on extremes, most equine sport is dangerous. Racing in itself I have no issue with! If the horses were properly trained for the sport, sure, it can be dangerous, but it can also be enjoyable for both parties! Same with Barrel Racing! A lot of the issue I see is from ignorant riders who have set beliefs and won't change no matter, resulting in physical and mental problems that then cause even more dangerous situations.

I feel that, really, the answer WOULD BE to cancel riding in general. Banned, illegal, done. Except that's not what will ever happen! Humans love riding, horses can too! It can be dangerous, but if both parties are comfortable then there shouldn't be an issue. Sure, a horse mentally can't make choices like a human. But, their instincts allow for better decision making that humans, in a lot of situations. Also, the sad fact here is that we'd never have this many horses without riding, they'd be used for meat, perhaps showing if humans persevered, but nothing more.

Again, I totally agree. The biggest issue in the horse world, in my opinion, is not seeing both sides, and not being willing to learn, should have made that more clear!

Thankyou for your response!! :DD would love to continue the conversation )

[Katy_Kanes]

Are you speaking purely looks?
The good thing and the bad thing about this game is that it's written into the coding that certain body conformation (directly affecting the looks) can push confo scores into certain higher areas. So, even though horses like this can be very ugly to the eye, it can affect those confo scores very positively. The other side to this, is that currently there is no downside (and perhaps may not be any) to such conformation. Like a horse with a sway-back, for instance. It just means that the horse's confo in that affected area will not have any or will barely have any points in that related section.

So... yes, some of these horses come out looking rather ugly to the eye. But it also means that confo scores in those areas have been boosted to certain areas as well.

Dusty, for example, has an uphill back, boosting his strength in that area by 9 points, plus adding a long hip, boosts strength again another 9 points (with 10 points added to speed) and the sloping hips adds again another 10 points to strength, making up 28 total points to strength in total (horse has 37 strength points). Thus this ugly hip accounts for 28 strength points in total.
Had he had other areas devoted to strength, he could've been a conformation horse for strength.

So, yes, ugly, but with purpose still.

This exact thing happens with most of my horses. Extremely uphill, with stupidly long giraffe neck, tiny shallow Jowels, with a high wither. This however helps them get their movement into the low-mid sixties.

[BlackOak2]

Totally agree with the first statement! I've got a lot of high COI still in my lines from my time as an unexperienced naive player, and I'm working hard to deal with it. At the same time, I've recently abandoned and rehomed years of foals due to them not physically looking like the breed in real life, in fact, I had two colts decently trained who I re homed just because of that (probably a bad choice, but i was upset at the time ) I really think it's a good goal to try to reach!!

Also, I had no idea that training could change a horse so much?!? THANKYOU

-

I agreed with you, and I should have pointed that out! My personal opinion is that Barrel Racing IS dangerous, yes, but I also think it's safe to say that almost every discipline is. I had to come to terms with that, personally, when I started to really think about horse welfare rather than my own satisfaction. I believe that, as an english rider who's taken on extremes, most equine sport is dangerous. Racing in itself I have no issue with! If the horses were properly trained for the sport, sure, it can be dangerous, but it can also be enjoyable for both parties! Same with Barrel Racing! A lot of the issue I see is from ignorant riders who have set beliefs and won't change no matter, resulting in physical and mental problems that then cause even more dangerous situations.

I feel that, really, the answer WOULD BE to cancel riding in general. Banned, illegal, done. Except that's not what will ever happen! Humans love riding, horses can too! It can be dangerous, but if both parties are comfortable then there shouldn't be an issue. Sure, a horse mentally can't make choices like a human. But, their instincts allow for better decision making that humans, in a lot of situations. Also, the sad fact here is that we'd never have this many horses without riding, they'd be used for meat, perhaps showing if humans persevered, but nothing more.

Again, I totally agree. The biggest issue in the horse world, in my opinion, is not seeing both sides, and not being willing to learn, should have made that more clear!

Thankyou for your response!! :DD would love to continue the conversation )

If you were to look at evolution at it's base value [insofar as humans directly affecting it], there are a number of animals around today that simply wouldn't exist.

If you were to succeed in such a tall mountain as canceling all horse riding, the very first thing that is likely to happen is the extinction of multiple at-risk breeds (currently at-risk). The industry does have it's bad points, but it's good points also aid in directly and indirectly funding the continuation of all horses. And the same could be said for any animal that exists because WE made it exist. Dogs, for example, cats, chickens, cows... the list goes on.

Sure, their wild ancestors exist, but the breeds and the animals that we know today, would dribble into extinction. Not because people aren't necessarily interested in them, but because these animals aren't designed to survive and thrive in the wild. It would be a huge secondary industry that would have to be born into existence to help these to survive. And such a thing, would likely be wholly supported by donations... because my mind can't help but think that these people that would make such a thing happen (the ending of an industry such as riding) would allow for such a thing like 'breed zoos' to exist. -_-

What I see is a long downhill slope into oblivion if such a thing happens and with any of the animals that we brought into existence.
So, the only thing leftover, to save both sides, is to strike a balance. I could see a big problem with at least one of these 'sides'. The 'horses are to be wild and not ever ridden' side.
...
They really do fail to see the simple fact that almost all of our breeds simple never existed in the wild before we started domesticating them.

Anyway.
Yes, training fixes a lot of the uglies in a lot of the places. Somewhere between halfway trained and 80% trained you'll see the biggest differences. So, if you want to make them prettier, just aim for somewhere in that area of training and they'll improve, regardless of weight.

And that's some of the most interesting points about the game. We, the player, can really make almost any goal we want. Then, we can try for it.

That's why this is indeed likely the best horse game (with breeding) online.

[BlackOak2]

Are you speaking purely looks?
The good thing and the bad thing about this game is that it's written into the coding that certain body conformation (directly affecting the looks) can push confo scores into certain higher areas. So, even though horses like this can be very ugly to the eye, it can affect those confo scores very positively. The other side to this, is that currently there is no downside (and perhaps may not be any) to such conformation. Like a horse with a sway-back, for instance. It just means that the horse's confo in that affected area will not have any or will barely have any points in that related section.

So... yes, some of these horses come out looking rather ugly to the eye. But it also means that confo scores in those areas have been boosted to certain areas as well.

Dusty, for example, has an uphill back, boosting his strength in that area by 9 points, plus adding a long hip, boosts strength again another 9 points (with 10 points added to speed) and the sloping hips adds again another 10 points to strength, making up 28 total points to strength in total (horse has 37 strength points). Thus this ugly hip accounts for 28 strength points in total.
Had he had other areas devoted to strength, he could've been a conformation horse for strength.

So, yes, ugly, but with purpose still.

This exact thing happens with most of my horses. Extremely uphill, with stupidly long giraffe neck, tiny shallow Jowels, with a high wither. This however helps them get their movement into the low-mid sixties.

Yup! Depending on the stats we focus on, it can really create oddly-looking horses.

Personally, the long backs are what throw me off the most. Tarpans have some incredibly long backs, right from the AC.

[Katy_Kanes]

This exact thing happens with most of my horses. Extremely uphill, with stupidly long giraffe neck, tiny shallow Jowels, with a high wither. This however helps them get their movement into the low-mid sixties.

Yup! Depending on the stats we focus on, it can really create oddly-looking horses.

Personally, the long backs are what throw me off the most. Tarpans have some incredibly long backs, right from the AC.

Here's some examples of especially ugly ones 66 Movement
I mean look at him!! His neck is sooooo long for his little body! Proportionally, he has pretty normal hips and a great movement stat.

Movement 63
And this girl is like the weiner dog of horses. Extremely long back, very far back stifle, longgggg, flat hip as well. Shes just kind of odd looking.

[BlackOak2]

Here's some examples of especially ugly ones 66 Movement
I mean look at him!! His neck is sooooo long for his little body! Proportionally, he has pretty normal hips and a great movement stat.

Movement 63
And this girl is like the weiner dog of horses. Extremely long back, very far back stifle, longgggg, flat hip as well. Shes just kind of odd looking.

Yes! That second one! I've seen at least visually longer and they always look... yeah. It gets even worse when they're heavier. Really look like overfed sausage-wiener dogs.