Intentional Crossbreeding

[Silverine]

So right now, the way breeding works is that any two horses that are matched together have the potential to create a new breed if their specific cross is a breed recipe. This is usually fine. However, there are times when a specific cross is needed for a breed recipe, but any attempts to create the cross are met instead with a new breed.

For example, crossing an Arabian with a North African Barb. The Arab x NAB cross is needed for the West African Barb recipe, but almost all Arab x NABs that fit the West African Barb evaluation will pop up not as an Arab x NAB, but as a Baladi. Here is a comparison of the evaluation requirements:

	West African Barb	Baladi
Height	14.0hh - 15.1hh	14.0hh - 15.1hh
Build	Very Light to Medium Light	Very Light to Light
Body Size	30% to 50%	0% to 25%
Type	90% to 70% Horse	100% to 70% Horse

As shown in the table above, the only area where the WAB differs significantly from the Baladi is in body size. For both height and type, any horse that qualifies as a WAB will also qualify as a Baladi. For build, only the very heaviest WAB qualifiers would not also be Baladis. For this reason, creating an Arab x NAB that is not a Baladi, but is still useful in WAB creation, is extremely difficult. This is only one example of the crosses for which this can be an issue.

I have a few suggestions to remedy this issue.
1. Allow the use of purebred horses that are created from a specific cross in place of that specific cross in breed recipes. Using the Arab x NAB and Baladi as an example, a recipe that requires an Arab x NAB would also accept a Baladi in place of the crossbreed.
2. Allow players to "revert" a crossbreed - if a foal is born as a new breed rather than a cross, give players the option to change that foal back to the intended cross. Players should not be able to undo a reversion. The reversion option should be removed either when the horse reaches breeding age or when the horse is bred for the first time, locking it into whichever option it is at that time.
3. Allow players to indicate whether a breeding should or should not attempt to create a new breed when pairing horses together. This option is potentially cumbersome both to implement and to play with but could be interesting. There is still no guarantee that the attempt would be successful, but if it would be, and the player indicated they did not want the new breed, the foal would still be born as a cross.
4. Have all horses born as crossbreeds, and allow players to evaluate them for new breeds at leisure. This is probably the least feasible option, simply because of the horses that require three or four breeds in their creation crosses. It could be tied in to the current evaluation system - if the horse meets the evaluation criteria and its parents are the correct breeds, then ask the player if they would like to "register" their horse as that breed.

I welcome input from anyone that would like to chime in on this.

[Ealesi]

As a hard core recipe breeder, i'm going to disagree. Yes, is it annoying when i don't get the x but get the new breed? ABSOLUTELY. However it can be avoided by using the evaluation tool and avoiding horses that are more than 3-4 in the new breed breeding together with a stud of the same requirements. It would take out the fun to be able to control it IMO, as you can't control it in real life, plus it makes it so players have to work for what they're aiming to breed. Would it be something to consider when COI becomes a problem? eh.... to me, and this is all my opinion, it would take the fun out of it. It would take the feeling of success out when a hard long recipe breed is finally established. Tampering with the breeds crossing system would make it harder for recipes to be made, and most players don't aim for low coi as they have established lines. It would also make any breeds made up to potential change worth less or worthless, as the old system works great, it's just having to put in the effort and time. It would devalue any current low COI projects as well to make the system easier or "rigged" to make making breed recipes earlier. I for one, as someone who's made a pretty penny from stud fees from low COI studs, and the sale of low COI horses, wouldn't want my effort to be worth less because the game is made easier with set only getting nab x arabs (example) and not having to specifically breed to avoid baladi, or skewing numbers to make breeds harder to get, which wouldnt help anyone.

[Silverine]

I get the feeling you didn't actually read anything that I suggested.

My whole point is that there are certain crossbreeds that can't be obtained with useful parameters if you intentionally breed too heavy or too light, etc. Because the needed cross needs an evaluation so close (or in some cases identical to) another breed recipe that nearly any foal that fits those requirements will also be the new breed. If you breed an Arab that is less than 3* for a Baladi with a NAB that is the same, the foal will end up completely useless for the purposes of creating the West African Barb.

And you absolutely can control what you register a horse as in real life. If you breed a Hanoverian to a Trakehner you don't automatically get a Brandenburger, even if it meets criteria. The foal can be registered as a Hanoverian, or a Trakehner, or be evaluated for registration as a Brandenburger. A Thoroughbred crossed with a Holstein does not automatically become a Hanoverian. A Thoroughbred crossed with a draft is not automatically an American or Canadian Warmblood. The breeders/owners must still put in the effort and apply for their horse to be recognized as those breeds. And they don't have to if they don't want to.

I'm not suggesting tweaking any of the numbers. I am suggesting a way to let players say "no, I don't want to register my horse as that new breed." Or to let the new breed stand in place of the required cross.

[Ealesi]

My whole point is that there are certain crossbreeds that can't be obtained with useful parameters if you intentionally breed too heavy or too light, etc. Because the needed cross needs an evaluation so close (or in some cases identical to) another breed recipe that nearly any foal that fits those requirements will also be the new breed. If you breed an Arab that is less than 3* for a Baladi with a NAB that is the same, the foal will end up completely useless for the purposes of creating the West African Barb.

Oh, I read what you said, if i misunderstood it may have been the original wording plus dyslexia.

It can be done with WAB (example horse) or even N/A to 2-3*. in galloways, tb's, andals, friesians, etc. Its just making matches based off what each eval needs; it helps to have the numbers and needed numbers in owner notes. My current project has used even 2*'s and n/a's with successful new breeds in recipe parts. Best practice is to evaluate each horse before the breed for the new breed even if it's 2 gens out.

I don't like the idea of the extra step of having to register a horse, that would add fees a lot of newer players probably couldn't afford. It would mean a lot of new players would not be able to register new breeds, if they made any and chose to register them. Which would then make some breeds harder to obtain in any coi (0-cap) capacity for everyone when that becomes a game need. The only way i see it being implemented is with a fee, similar to other games who have the same process as well as real life.

[slayqueenn]

Here's my thoughts on your suggestions just by my understanding so far, these obviously and most likely will not be the same so feel free to add any comments onto what I'm saying. I'm just taking parts out of the text and adding my opinions onto it.

a recipe that requires an Arab x NAB would also accept a Baladi in place of the crossbreed.

If we were to have this I'd think that there should be a way to qualify your horse as an Arab x NAB instead of a Baladi, this I believe has already been stated in the text but if you want to breed Baladi's there's no reason to qualify your horse as an Arab x NAB. Watered down, Baladi's are Arab x NABs and if you want it qualify or "replace" a Arab x NAB you must register it. If Baladi's were what you wanted you don't have to worry about registering it as an Arab x NAB because that's not what you want. This would make breeding a lot easier, though that means that as Ealesi was saying, they'd be to less value.

Allow players to "revert" a crossbreed - if a foal is born as a new breed rather than a cross, give players the option to change that foal back to the intended cross.

I think that this would ok to do, though my only thoughts on this is that if they're born a cross or a grade they should not be able to revert into a new breed. I think that this option should only be available until 6 months or when they are off the mares milk, that way nobody can complain about people changing up their horses in sales. The simple solution to it is to just age the horse until 6 months or older. I do agree though that a reversion should not be undone, if you accidentally revert your horse though I'd like to still have that option before it reaches 6 months of age, that's more just my opinion on it really as I'm very clumsy.

Allow players to indicate whether a breeding should or should not attempt to create a new breed when pairing horses together.

I think that the attempt part plays a big role in it. If you decide that they should not create a new breed it will come out either a cross or a grade, but if you decide that you want it to attempt to make a new breed you should still have the same chances as the current gameplay. The chances to get new breeds right now are fine, if you decide that you want them to create a new breed it shouldn't give it a higher chance to, just a chance.

Have all horses born as crossbreeds, and allow players to evaluate them for new breeds at leisure.

A lot of them would be born as grades instead of crossbreeds, those guys are confusing. It can also be hard because if you're for example trying to breed a Navarrin Horse, [WAB is red and Anglo-Arab is green in my example] it would look something like Half NAB x Grade Horse. That was just from my quick glance at the breeds wiki so hopefully I got that somewhat right, I understand that it probably is not so feel free to correct me.

There's a little bit of what I've wrote down in the past 2 hours (uh oh! ) I'm always open to learning new things so please let me know if you have a different perspective on what I've read and understood.

[Nercrodrone]

What if there was an weighting difference in whether it's a crossbreed or new breed related to the mated horses age? like breeding a young horse to an old horse far more likely leads to crossbreeds, but if horses were bred together at close to the same age has a higher chance of producing the new breed, or vice versa? Would that be a helpful way of managing close requirements between 2 close breed requirements without making big sweeping changes to game mechanics?

[Silverine]

Believe me, I understand how the breeding works. I've worked my way through every breed recipe and still create new breeds regularly for various reasons. I regularly create new lines from AC horses to infuse into my Knabstruppers. I have bred a line of heavy, pony-type Arabians for the purpose of crossing. I am intimately familiar with the process. And still, I believe that "devaluing" the current crosses is well worth the price of making them easier to obtain.

I never said that people would have to pay fees to register their horses. I said it would be tied into the evaluation system. Currently, the only thing you need to pay for that is the book price. And anyone having trouble with a cross would most likely have paid that anyway. In my mind, you would pop the foal, go to the evaluation page, evaluate it, and if it qualified you would be given the option to register it. Yes, that is an extra step in the process. But it's also only one of the four different options I described.

Let's see if I can keep this in order.

To your first point: It would be interesting to need to register a horse to qualify for a cross. Technically, whatever purebred a player used would still need to have the correct characteristics to create the new breed. So using a horse that's many generations in and bred away from the standard wouldn't really be helpful in the specific instance in the example. Hmm. Definitely something to think about.

Point two: I agree. I never intended for a player to be able to convert a foal that is born a cross into a purebred. It was born as a cross because it didn't meet the standard, so why would you be able to declare it that breed later? I also agree on complications regarding the sale of horses. I don't think it would be an issue for anything put up for open sale, but it could become an issue on anything that wants offers. In that case the reversion should be locked. It might also make sense for only the breeder of the horse to be able to revert them. As far as age locks go - I could see six months being okay. But I also worry for the forgetful players that won't remember the horse even exists until they get the breeding age notification.

Point three: Exactly. There is no guarantee that a new breed will created. If a player wants to attempt breed creation they still have the same chance they did before. There is no magical button that says "create this breed now!" They just have the option to let the system know when they specifically don't want a new breed.

Point four: In the specific case you mentioned, assuming both parents are 100%, the foal would actually be born as a West African Barb x Anglo-Arab [50%]. I believe you're thinking of something more like the TB or East Bulgarian recipe. The TB is [Arab x NAB] x [Akhal-Teke x Galloway], so any foal born of that cross that didn't qualify as a TB would be grade. The East Bulgarian recipe is TB x [Arab x Anglo-Arab], so any non-qualifying foal from that recipe would be born as a Half-TB.

I do agree that having all horses born as crossbreeds could lead to confusion, especially for newer players. But that's why I was asking for input.

That's an interesting thought! I hadn't considered that. It kind of mimics how foal quality tends to decline as a horse ages. Definitely something to think about.

[BlackOak2]

*Note: Because my time online currently is limited, I only read the primary post and not the replies.

Admin has long said that they intend to allow for downgrading of new breeds made in the future. So, for the example, we will eventually have the opportunity to take a Baladi and downgrade it back into the cross.

In this case, this is the best option I like as well. Being able to downgrade from a new breed and back to a cross is the most straightforward action without feeling like we're jumping through excessive hoops to achieve it. I didn't think about the breeding ability, I think locking it to before breeding age is most appropriate. I was personally think 'first year' but sometimes, we may not look at our foals until they're a year or two older, to really cinch down on that adult height. So, just before breeding age would be my vote.