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Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby BlackOak2 » May 31st, 2019, 1:07 pm

Wow, a LOT of new information!

I do agree that plume could be a form of flaxen showing on the other colors, it would explain why it doesn't show up on black. However, we come back to the original knowledge that flaxen 'is not supposed to affect any other color then chestnut (not just red hairs, but the coat color chestnut). Even the internet agrees that flaxen affects chestnuts (our admins keep to real life for a lot of this, this is why I reply this). I didn't locate any information about a flaxen gene or a flaxen-linked gene affecting non-chestnuts, but my search wasn't comprehensive, I certainly could've missed something.
The problem I have with this theory however, is that this silvering over the fetlocks will color over the bay-black on the legs. As seen in this horse here:


If I agree with this theory (and I am leaning toward it, insofar as the closest and most likely gene), then we must change the knowledge that when flaxen-plume appears on a non-chestnut horse, it overrides some of the black hairs, at least on the legs.

As for plume being linked to pangare, I have my doubts about this, fairly strongly. There are characteristics of pangare that are not shared by plume. Most obviously, Plume doesn't affect the face or the stomach and Pangare doesn't affect the mane and tail (of course I could be proven wrong). Plus, it sits on top of the pangare when both are expressed. It shows more similar characteristics of dun, the same area colored on the legs as dun and offers a continuation of the dorsal stripe into the mane and tail. However, it doesn't appear to affect grulla (black and dun).

I am wondering now though, if the plume silvering on the fetlocks will also color the feathers with the silver color. Although this won't really add or subtract to what this plume gene may or may not be linked to, it will allow us some further understanding into what it does.

Since it's recessive though, it's not surprising that the new generation of fresh blood didn't pop any plume. In fact, since black is a difficult gene to work with, it's entirely possible that it's not showing, not because it doesn't affect it, but because it's being aggressively stubborn. That being said, at this point in time, until proven wrong, I'm agreeing that plume isn't affecting black. Thus I can also determine that it's unlikely to be connected to silver (regardless of how much it appears similar and I want it to :lol: ).

It still could be it's own-standing gene. It hasn't yet proven to be linked to anything, at the same time, there is little to disprove it as well.

We've thus far seen that it will offer itself with and without pangare, with and without dun, on agouti colors. I'm unsure about chestnut still though. It's so easy to call that flaxen and not plume at all, even though it could just as easy to say that it's pairing up and expressing in conjunction with flaxen.

Theories still have weight, but I'm beginning to lean toward it being a stand-alone gene.

By the way, that pseudo-black with the brilliant silver legs is such a sharp-looking horse! I'm sending that one over to the favorites post. :P
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Silverine » May 31st, 2019, 5:07 pm

Just for curiosities sake, are there any brown horses that display plume? So far I've seen bay, and chestnut to some extent, but are we sure it shows up on brown as well?
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Gaagii » May 31st, 2019, 8:06 pm

BlackOak2 wrote:Wow, a LOT of new information!

By the way, that pseudo-black with the brilliant silver legs is such a sharp-looking horse! I'm sending that one over to the favorites post. :P


I know. He's a favourite.

Silverine wrote:Just for curiosities sake, are there any brown horses that display plume? So far I've seen bay, and chestnut to some extent, but are we sure it shows up on brown as well?


No, no browns. Yet


Okay so so far:
Bay - with & without dun, with & without pangare
"Flaxen" Chestnut
Flaxen" Red Dun

I am still not convinced that it isn't a sort of silver. Silver can change black. I am going off what happens irl with morgans (a neighbor owns two).
Website > vhttp://www.morgancolors.com/silverdapple.htm
http://www.silverdapplemorgansproject.c ... silver.htm

Yes if silver you'd think it'd influence the body, like silver dapples. But what if it's affected by the expression of agouti? Bay is Aa/AA. This could explain why it resembles flaxen on chestnut as chestnut doesn't express agouti. And as black is aa agouti not Aa/AA agouti it doesn't express right either.

Or is it some form of a flaxen as assumed
Website > http://equinetapestry.com/2012/12/more- ... aned-bays/


I think I need to find some good browns to test this potential. As hypothetically, if following real life genes, brown on the game should be another agouti gene from bay & black.


Silverine, however, also me curious with the pangare idea. It may not be related but how do they interact as they affect the same areas of the legs at least.
The pangares that I have are lightly marked and I am adopting a few strongly pangare marked belgians. Some bay belgians will also allow me to test what the silvered fetlock potentially does to feathers.


But, at the same time, blackoak2 might be right about a stand alone. I said at the start that the tail carryover seems to be affected by the silvered fetlocks.

But unless it is my screen giving the illusion of both having the discolouring to the tail one has silver fetlocks and the other doesn't.
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Silverine » May 31st, 2019, 8:15 pm

Gaagii wrote:I am still not convinced that it isn't a sort of silver. Silver can change black. I am going off what happens irl with morgans (a neighbor owns two).
Website > vhttp://www.morgancolors.com/silverdapple.htm
http://www.silverdapplemorgansproject.c ... silver.htm

Yes it should affect the body too. But what if it's affected by the expression of agouti. This could explain why it resembles flaxen on chestnut as chestnut doesn't express agouti. And as black is aa agouti not Aa/AA agouti it doesn't express either.


Silver, however, only affects black pigment. Chestnuts have no black pigment to be affected, so silver, by definition, can not affect them. This includes real life and the game - silver simply does not show up on red pigment. Black pigment, however, will always have some effect from the silver gene if it is present. This can be very faint - lightening the black to a very dark chocolate, for example - or more pronounced, but it will still affect the entirety of the black pigment. The horses I've seen presented with the plume still have discernibly black hairs.

Also, if it a version of silver then we would have seen silver coloration pop up in either the blacks or browns. It would also be a dominant expression, rather than the seemingly recessive one you are working with.
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Gaagii » May 31st, 2019, 8:27 pm

Silverine wrote:
Gaagii wrote:I am still not convinced that it isn't a sort of silver. Silver can change black. I am going off what happens irl with morgans (a neighbor owns two).
Website > vhttp://www.morgancolors.com/silverdapple.htm
http://www.silverdapplemorgansproject.c ... silver.htm

Yes it should affect the body too. But what if it's affected by the expression of agouti. This could explain why it resembles flaxen on chestnut as chestnut doesn't express agouti. And as black is aa agouti not Aa/AA agouti it doesn't express either.


Silver, however, only affects black pigment. Chestnuts have no black pigment to be affected, so silver, by definition, can not affect them. This includes real life and the game - silver simply does not show up on red pigment. Black pigment, however, will always have some effect from the silver gene if it is present. This can be very faint - lightening the black to a very dark chocolate, for example - or more pronounced, but it will still affect the entirety of the black pigment. The horses I've seen presented with the plume still have discernibly black hairs.

Also, if it a version of silver then we would have seen silver coloration pop up in either the blacks or browns. It would also be a dominant expression, rather than the seemingly recessive one you are working with.


I know which is why I am thinking more some sort of a stand alone akin to silver or flaxen.
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Silverine » May 31st, 2019, 8:28 pm

Gaagii wrote:I know which is why I am thinking more some sort of a stand alone akin to silver or flaxen.


Ah, okay. You just said that you weren't convinced that it wasn't silver, so I was trying to explain why it was different. ;)
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby HallOfFame 2 » June 1st, 2019, 12:01 pm

Silverine wrote:Ping

Gaagii wrote:Ping


Is he considered Plume as well?

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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby BlackOak2 » June 1st, 2019, 1:44 pm

I do like the idea that it may ONLY affect agouti. That's certainly a really neat concept. :D

But that comes from the same spot that wants to save and pass on the unique glitch-coat horses that pop up in the AC.

I'm not particularly fond of that website blog about the flaxen bays. It's too easy that some of those 'silver' haired areas she was pointing out to have come from old injuries, rashes or bad rubs. As far as 'silver' hair in the mane and tail is concerned, I've seen too many horses that will regularly grow in a 'silver' hair from time to time. As far as I'm concerned, it's just like when we grow in a white hair, the hair color gene in the follicle just doesn't get switched on when the hair begins to grow. I've seen this occur in bays, chestnuts, blacks, part-colored, browns...
In fact, the one chestnut I used to ride, for the shows I went to, I would pull out the couple I found in preparation. It was a regular practice at the barn I used to ride at, in preparation for all the shows attended, to remove what white hairs in the mane or tail that were there.

However, she could have a point. Because agouti isn't all black, but a mixture of black and red, I suppose there is a chance that such a gene like flaxen could affect them. I don't know that much about the interaction of flaxen and red to make a conclusion, I only have what limited knowledge I have already learned from the net (and personal experiences from books, working with horses... so on...).

But that's all I have to add so far.

By the way, you must have rehomed the other horse, there was only one image. Of it, it appears to be another affected by sooty. I'm not sure about the potential silvering, I think it's just what we think we're seeing, because sooty is making the rest of the body darker, it just appears the legs are more brilliant.
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Silverine » June 1st, 2019, 6:50 pm

For the record, agouti is not black and red. Agouti simply refers to the gene that determines how much black pigment is visible (if it is not entirely restricted by the extension gene). (UC Davis's page on it. Another very interesting UC Davis page.) At the simplest level, extension controls red pigment and agouti controls black. Homozygous recessive extension forces red pigment everywhere, no matter the agouti gene. With heterozygous (or homozygous dominant) extension, black pigment can be expressed and control of that pigment reverts to the agouti gene. Dominant agouti simply restricts the expression of the black pigment, keeping it to the points of the horse. It does not affect the expression of the red pigment.

Also, fun little thing I found out through research - no one's really sure how flaxen works! :lol: The original theory was that it was simply a recessive gene, but now the thinking is more that it is polygenic. Some interesting reading on the topic:
Article from October 2009
Follow-up from February 2010
Unfortunately the link to the full write-up is dead. :(
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Re: Color Study ('plume' mane - odd pale/two-toned manes)

Postby Silverine » June 1st, 2019, 7:42 pm

BlackOak2 wrote:Generally speaking, varnish begins to appear during their first year after the foal coat is blown and will stop changing the coat at about 15 years. However, by the time the horse is 5 (in most cases), the varnish is already so extreme that the original horse color appears to be a type of silver grulla with no dapples.
In my herd, they'll start to show some hidden spots (begin to varnish) sometime after their first year but before their fifth. However, more and more of my herd is retaining their original coat color, albeit a bit washed out version of it.


I kept meaning to come back to this but forgot. :lol:

Varnish actually CAN affect horses before they completely blow their foal coat. Here's a filly, currently nine months old, already showing varnish:




Close-up of her 'hidden' spots:

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Also just wanted to make a note that while Lp sooty can affect the color spots, varnish will not affect spots - hence why we can see hidden spots appear after the varnish has occurred.
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