GP

[Ealesi]

Does training help increase breeding towards GP? Is it random? What factors are taken into account to help increase gp? What gives the best odds of increasing gp?

I'm attempting a Fin Universal line, and trying to increase the gp has been the hardest part. I don't want to breed out to a 6 gold friesian and back breed to a Fin uni until pure, however I'm kind of stuck. I've been taking the best of foals, and trying, however i'm not able to get above about 45k gp. Trying to learn a bit more about the game so I dont mess up this line.

[BlackOak2]

Does training help increase breeding towards GP? Is it random? What factors are taken into account to help increase gp? What gives the best odds of increasing gp?

I'm attempting a Fin Universal line, and trying to increase the gp has been the hardest part. I don't want to breed out to a 6 gold friesian and back breed to a Fin uni until pure, however I'm kind of stuck. I've been taking the best of foals, and trying, however i'm not able to get above about 45k gp. Trying to learn a bit more about the game so I dont mess up this line.

Okay, so let's first review a bit. Pardon if it's 'well I already KNOW all of that'. Sometimes it helps to ensure all the gaps are filled in.

HGP is Horse Genetic Potential. It's a hard value of how many genes (performance genes and not color genes) that a horse has. Basically, the more genes, the higher the number.
A horse's gene count is NOT influenced by training or showing or gaining titles or anything else that we can manipulate. The horse has all the genes and all the genes that it'll be able to pass onward, from the day it's born (or pulled from the AC).
So, we increase the genes in succeeding generations, but selectively breeding and culling of the herd (culling meaning, getting rid of the unacceptable stock).
By doing this, we favor certain things that we want... and sometimes things that we don't intend but that we overlook or ignore.

Okay, so the art of increasing the HGP in successive generations means we need to know and understand what type of genes our herd has. Since we cannot and likely will never be able to have a good, naked look at the performance stats a horse has, we need to be guided instead, by the foals that the horses produce.

We do so by keeping watch on what any particular horse throws. Take a sampling. Say for a sire, breed it to (as an example) ten broodmares (at least half of them unrelated) and look at the foals that have been produced. If all or most of your foals pop out with red comments in balance, than you can say 'it looks like this stud has weak genes in balance.'
In this way, we can identify weak and strong performance genes of our herd. If any one horse keeps throwing genes you don't want, it may be better to just replace that horse, rather than keeping these foals.

Now for some reminders.
--> A horse that consistently throws better HGP than itself, especially with partners that are very close to the same HGP, may have some hidden beautiful genes there. Likewise, a horse that consistently throws worse HGP, likely has a lot more weaker genes.
--> A foal that pops from a pair of parents that Far Exceeds both parents may never produce better than what it has. Because the ranges of the parents would've maxed out and shown those maxes in that foal. Think of this in this way: Each horse has a range of numbers it carries and can pass on, to make it a little easier to understand, lets say that horse A has speed numbers of 10 to 15 and horse B has speed numbers of 9 to 30. Horse A shows a comment that comes from the revealed number of 13 and the other numbers (10, 11, 12, 14 and 15) remain hidden. Horse B reveals the comment that comes from the revealed number of 25. These numbers are all fictional. But it's the revealed number that affects the horse's performance in it's discipline. Foal can come out with any ranges from 9 to 30, however when breeding, we can lose the outer edges. So many of your foals may come out in the 15 to 25 ranges or ranges far slimmer and even ranges outside of these, like a foal that has a speed range from 5 to 40. This is how we can improve and ruin HGP. But say from this pair, you have a foal that pops and shows a speed number and comment of 32. This is in excess of Horse B and the foal has a range that maxes out at that high number. The range given to any of the foals descendants will likely be below or maxing out at 32 and thus is highly unlikely to pass this foal's ability.
So, sometimes keeping these types of 'in excess of both parents' foals' defeats the purpose of building a better line.
--> Be harder on the colts than the fillies. You're most likely to find many more acceptable colts than fillies, because this is built into the game. If two identical foals are born and the only difference between the two of them is gender, the filly will be slightly-less-than the colt. How much is debatable, though.
--> COI can be your friend. High COI can be useful to help dealing with genes you don't want, but it can also be hurtful for the same reason. Use it when and where you need it and then deal with it by having a good plan in place (usually in the for of a horse you've saved to bring the COI back down by being more than seven generations old or by being a line-bred family member).
--> We've been told by admin, that the most golds we can have on any one horse is 7. Because of the way the conformation and genes are designed, we cannot make a monster horse dominate in every spot. But we can have 7 golds and one green.
--> Most of the best-competing horses have an HGP from 55 to 65. Including our record breakers.

Now a little about a gameplan.
If starting with AC horses, it will take at least 4 generations until the worst of the genes are bred out. What this means is that these first 4 generations will have your HGP not really improving and may indeed decrease a bit. Let the BR be your guide. Try to deal with the red comments and favor the positive comments.
From generation 5 to about 7, you should be able to boost the HGP into the low 40's. I'm not talking about your absolute best foals, I'm talking about the overall average of your herd. You may still have 37's hanging about and you may have some 46's or better.
After generation 8 you shouldn't really have any more creepy-ugly genes left over. All of your foals should have BR's that are good looking, may or may not have any greens or golds, but should with little fanfare, continue to grow. At this point, as long as you've tightened your culling habits and you're careful about what new blood you bring in, you should be able to produce better and better foals.
Once you've entered into the HGP high 50's, you should be starting to think about competition heart and competition development, if you haven't started to do so already.

Does any of that make sense? There's some heavy reading in my quicklinks if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of it. But ^ that's not really light reading either.

[Ealesi]

That's so super helpful! So really [paraphrasing so make sure i got the gist] it's built in the game and up to chance? Colts will throw better than mares, so be picky there? and coi isnt a big deal except to help maybe to help shape/harm depending on the mix and traits?

[Ealesi]

and is there a wat to find those numbers of the 5-40? that's the report right? i know theres a spreadsheet i've been using to kind of track traits, do those numbers give me a better idea of where to make matches? [will find link here shortly]

[BlackOak2]

and is there a wat to find those numbers of the 5-40? that's the report right? i know theres a spreadsheet i've been using to kind of track traits, do those numbers give me a better idea of where to make matches? [will find link here shortly]

Well... it's kind of up to chance. The culling we do, will play a LOT into what our herd produces and if you can get just the right genes (and depending on your goals), it's been proven to get to record holding levels in as little as... 20? generations? Make note, however, that record holding levels are NOT HGP in the 70's, rather it's HGP in the low 60's area, generally speaking. So building up a herd isn't entirely up to chance so much as it's manipulated by our culling activities. But yes, it's kind of like chance rolls.

The numbers I offered weren't based on the reality of the coding, they were used to give you a firmer understanding of how this game is coded to give us each successive generation. By breeding and culling the foals that have things you definitely don't way, you can shave off the lower ends of those genes and encourage that unknown number upward.

However, there are a few things that the community has written up that lends us some help. Remember though, that this is the work of the community and was not given to us by admins, so it's entirely possible the information contained isn't entirely accurate.
Understanding the Breeders Report and Conformation Evaluation is a guide given to us by our admin, it explains how the report is written, just a review of what I've also already offered, but a little more in-depth so you can continue to wrap your head around it.
All Breeders Report Comments <--This one is as it's entitled. Added benefit of being listed from what the community has determined to be the Most Likely best to worst, including the colors the comments come in.
Discipline Potential Evaluation This one may be most helpful for guiding you to where you want your horses go to (discipline). If you can access Googledocs, many people have found it useful to peg down just where their rough-stock is, before even sending them to competitions for evaluations. But pairing this doc with the competitions, you can also use it to find where your horses weak hard genes are.

***
Okay. I need to clear one thing up. Colts come out better than their filly siblings, they don't throw better than the fillies. You'll find some sires always seem to throw fillies and some always seem to throw colts. This can be an indication of what types of genes your horse MAY have. Always throwing colts MAY BE an indication that the horse has better hard genes. So, take a look at his progeny and see if anything jumps out at you. The same for the mares. Some will seem to favor colts and others fillies. If you have a mare that seems to always throw fillies, take a closer look at her offspring, this could be an indication that she's actually weaker gene'd than she appears.
It's supposed to be always a 50/50 chance of which gender you'll get and mathematically speaking, if you have a coin and you toss it into the air, you have just as much chance of having 50 heads and 50 tails as you have of having 99 heads and 1 tail. But some things are curiosities. Taking a closer look when things jump out at you like this, could offer you an indication of other things. Maybe not, but sometimes it's worthwhile to look closer.

When I said to be picker with the colts you get, it's because if you value the ones you get the same across fillies and colts, you'll find yourself saving 30 colts and only 9 fillies, which will leave you in a big bind. So be much more picky on the colts you choose to keep. If you find yourself low on colts, you can always loosen your pickiness on the colts for a generation to compensate.

***
No, COI isn't that big of a deal. Handle it the way you feel comfortable handling it. The one thing you need to be careful of with COI is the plateau area. That comes about in the 80% range (right now the COI may still be a little wonky, so take the COI number in the pedigree with a little salt). That's about the same time you'll start creating carbon copy horses (horses that seem more identical or closer to being identical than not). If you (maybe WHEN you) get to this point, you can start to weed out all the GOOD genes that push the horses upwards further. So the plateau must be watched for, but if you have a far-sized breeding base, it won't be a problem for awhile.
So, remember to use COI when it fits your needs. For instance, a foal that for some reason, you train up and toss into competitions and you find him or her just pounding all the other horses into the ground. In this case, caste that horse's genes everywhere into your herd and it will be a benefit to your bloodline.

[Ealesi]

Thank you for clearing that up! I appreciate it!

I've had the luck of having better fillies recently with the line i'm asking questions about, whew. Knowing all this makes that like a pot of gold tbh!

so 80% coi is when things get carbon copy? or 80% of 100%
Here's the line if for reference, https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4188424

[BlackOak2]

Thank you for clearing that up! I appreciate it!

I've had the luck of having better fillies recently with the line i'm asking questions about, whew. Knowing all this makes that like a pot of gold tbh!

so 80% coi is when things get carbon copy? or 80% of 100%
Here's the line if for reference, https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4188424

80% COI.
As things now stand, COI can go much further than 100%. I think (before the weirdness with the COI, which may be fixed by now), the highest confirmed COI I saw was...??? 180%? 202? Quite high, anyway.

80% is when you start to see carbon copies. So if you had, say, a habit of breeding full siblings together, you'll start to see their offspring looking almost just like them when they grow up. So, same head form, same hip angles, same ribs, etc. You'll also start to see the same area of comments. So you'll still have different comments, because comment choice is a random algorithm that chooses a certain comment from a number of comments for that outcome (showed) number; but you'll see the same few comments (all dependent on how many comments are included for that number). So, for example, you'll have the secretariat comment and the lightening comment popping up on all the foals. I don't know which comments cover which of those numbers, so I can give you a broad idea, but not actual facts. Somebody might have a closer idea of which comments cover which stat numbers, but nobody but admin has the facts of that. And they won't give them.

Oh, and congrats! Getting good fillies sometimes is quite a feat. Your reference mare looks decent. BR and scores look like they're fairly decently balanced. Movement is awful, but that's the most difficult stat to work with.

[Ealesi]

Weirdness with coi?

Is it possible to breed past 9999% coi? I'm at about 1500% currently, https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4189319 , and worried that with such a small gene pool, that coi is going to be so insane. The worry is I'll get stuck even with back breeding due to ridiculous coi

[BlackOak2]

Weirdness with coi?

Is it possible to breed past 9999% coi? I'm at about 1500% currently, https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4189319 , and worried that with such a small gene pool, that coi is going to be so insane. The worry is I'll get stuck even with back breeding due to ridiculous coi

Hmm. That horse is gone.
But yes, that's the weirdness with COI, currently.

I pulled one up so I could explain.
This horse of yours: https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4191646
If you open the pedigree for the sire and see the grandparents COI is 35.45% and 71.77% respectively and you see the sire's COI is 157.11% and then the colt's COI is 206.58%... this isn't the way the coding worked before this new layout we have now. So it's still be readjusted to act better and admin is... writing new code? to handle it??? or something. COI doesn't jump like that.

Where's that link...
viewtopic.php?t=43148
This is the link for the bug.
There is also a screenshot of another interesting horse and at least one link of another that's all experiencing it. We all are. So, the COI issue will be fixed at some point. But, as far as when the carbon copies will appear (80% COI, that I suggested)... with the bug we now have... I'm not sure how to offer it additional light. But I suspect you're still quite far from it. Looking at your colt's pedigree, I'd say that you're hanging right in the 50% range and not the 206 that it actually shows. You'd have to breed this colt to his sibling and then their foals together and probably those foal's foals together to get into that 80% area... or something.

[Ealesi]

so something closer to this, https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4191869
or
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4191975
bred by me, same line as rehomed that was lower coi, better idea of why i'm asking questions
COI doesn't jump like that?

I'll def check out the bug forum, as my coi's have been jumping couple hundred % it seems with breeding this close together